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I know you can't compare and I didn't mean to come off snide. I meant , first off that there is still a lot of Brooklyn that's up and coming , rather than already arrived. And less than 20% of St. Pete is what I would consider Skid Row.
I agree. Overall St. Pete is a very nice city, it just has a couple of bad neighborhoods, just like almost every other city and town does.
Downtown Tampa is TOO CLOSE to crackdown...Wayyy to close...within a mile or less... Yeah, there have been "some" improvements, but it is SLOW...for some inexplicable reason, and the changes made do not reflect a demographic or another. The city of Tampa is not doing much to attract anything but some youngsters, who are disoriented about what's normally considered good quality entertainment.
I resent that. Maybe young people want to move downtown because they grew up in cookie-cutter boring suburbs where every house looks exactly the same and every other block has an Interstate exit, a Wal-Mart, and a Cracker Barrel. Maybe the city can't attract middle-aged people because these people are so bent on living somewhere with a lawn and a couple of trees, because that is what they have been comfortable with their whole life. Or they are attracted by the price-to-sqft ratio. And, you know what, I won't judge them for that, because I don't have the right to tell them what they should be interested in and what they shouldn't.
Btw, there are some new low-income apartments downtown that are pretty nice and there are a few senior centers going up too...and I hear they are filling up.
And I think you are taking this out of context a little too much. Yeah, Tampa will never be New York, and it has a long way to go, but the main point here is that the city looks as if it is starting to clean itself up, as most northern cities did in the 90's and early 00's, and prioritize where it needs to prioritize...and since the area is amazing already, that calls for some optimism. It is happening slowly because of the economy and because of the government (i.e. the light rail situation). So I applaud the mayor for actually doing something given this type of climate.
I agree with you that they need to do something about the homeless, though. A city with as few people in it as ours needs to have less homeless.
I resent that. Maybe young people want to move downtown because they grew up in cookie-cutter boring suburbs where every house looks exactly the same and every other block has an Interstate exit, a Wal-Mart, and a Cracker Barrel. Maybe the city can't attract middle-aged people because these people are so bent on living somewhere with a lawn and a couple of trees, because that is what they have been comfortable with their whole life. Or they are attracted by the price-to-sqft ratio. And, you know what, I won't judge them for that, because I don't have the right to tell them what they should be interested in and what they shouldn't.
Btw, there are some new low-income apartments downtown that are pretty nice and there are a few senior centers going up too...and I hear they are filling up.
I agree with you that they need to do something about the homeless, though. A city with as few people in it as ours needs to have less homeless.
Once you grow up and start a family you will understand... cant help you now. You will find out the "downtown" lifestyle is not conducive to having a family.
You must be kidding! That's an insult to Manhattan! Have you been to Manhattan?
Tampa "has" the potential to become a more cosmopolitan city, NEVER a Manhattan! People move here to avoid the Manhattan craziness! However, downtown is DEAD after 5! Manhattan is alive 24/7! You cannot make that comparison in a million years! Miles of wasted real estate will have to be bulldozed to make downtown Tampa more appealing, and ALIVE. Start with cleaning up the homeless.
Downtown Tampa is TOO CLOSE to crackdown...Wayyy to close...within a mile or less... Yeah, there have been "some" improvements, but it is SLOW...for some inexplicable reason, and the changes made do not reflect a demographic or another. The city of Tampa is not doing much to attract anything but some youngsters, who are disoriented about what's normally considered good quality entertainment.
In NYC you have entertainment for everyone specifically marketed for different demographics. Here you don't, because you don't have ENOUGH entertainment venues to create COMPETITION. Competition between Broadway type shows, ballet, music, etc. In Tampa I do not have a choice between going to see Swan Lake, or a Martha Graham ballet. I only have what's fed at the performing arts center, which is MINIMAL in the general scope of things, and in return it is detrimental to the young people around who have to grow up without choices, so they have the ability to form an opinion on something.
AND to top that, I completely disagree that having three football teams is beneficial in any way, or that it brings quality entertainment to the area. On the contrary, I think it is flat out brainwashing youngsters into ONE type of entertainment. It is NOT educational, is it not even pretty to look at....a bunch of sweaty guys running after a damn ball, and beating the crap out of each other for it! I am sorry, I am not a fan...it is not enriching my life in any way shape or form. I think we have more than enough of that. If it wasn't for my kids school, we would have moved to Sarasota mainly because while it is a much smaller city, it values the arts a LOT better!
Half of St Pete is more like Skid ROW than Brooklyn....Brooklyn would be mad with such comparison...
The "Tampa Bay" area is no match for NYC. It will never be, unless extensive construction starts happening now, and unless some variety in entertainment is brought into the area. "I" should have a hard time deciding what show to go too...unlike now, where I'm like.....I've seen this, and this, and that and now what?
I think you misunderstood what I meant, which is fair because I didn't clarify. Much like Manhattan is the financial/cultural/epicenter of the NYC Metro, Tampa is the financial/cultural/epicenter of the Bay area. And St. Pete is the bohemian/artsy area much like Brooklyn has become in NYC. If you read further, I suggest that Tampa will become a nice secondary city. I don't expect it to reach NYC levels, or even pass Miami or Atlanta for that matter. Just be in the same sentence as Austin, San Diego, etc.
I have been to NYC many times, my dad is retired law enforcement in NY so I've been to the city more times than I can count.
I live in St. Pete and I would not use skid row to describe it at all. Then again I party in the south side quite a bit so maybe I'm a bit more adventurous than yourself.
Also, I think there is a big cultural difference between the Northeast and the Southeast. In the Northeast, everybody wants to be entertained (fair enough, it's brutally cold for 6 months and muggy as crap for 2 months). In the Southeast, people like to entertain themselves; going to the beach, playing golf, water sports, etc. One style isn't inherently better, it's just different.
And the type of entertainment you describe is just old guard entertainment. Yes, I do appreciate ballet and classical, but I think the demographic in NYC (upper class) caters more to that type of entertainment. Take a walk down Central Ave on a Thurs-Sun night and you can hear some of the best independent punk, folk, rock, metal, electronic, hip hop, reggae, and blues in any given bar or venue. And for the bigger events, the Forum was rated one of the top arenas in the country.
Sorry if I offended beloved NYC. I've been there quite a few times and yes it's truly unique. I forget that some people have the "Beatles' " complex when it comes to NYC, you can't compare anything or you can't even talk about it without somebody getting all bent out of shape claiming its superiority.
Aside from breaking balls, the density will never achieve Manhattan-like numbers due to a number of factors, many related to infrastructure. It could achieve the numbers via sprawl, but that defeats the purpose.
I like the idea of St. Pete being Brooklyn. Infinitely cooler than Tampa.
Thanks for clarifying that. I really thought you meant that literally!
I said this before, but I too see Tampa as the more artsy in comparison with other cities. Miami is known for its nightlife, Orlando for theme parks, and Tampa besides having the best beaches by the Gulf, has the more artistic atmosphere. There is still enough room for improvement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by powellmacaque
I think you misunderstood what I meant, which is fair because I didn't clarify. Much like Manhattan is the financial/cultural/epicenter of the NYC Metro, Tampa is the financial/cultural/epicenter of the Bay area. And St. Pete is the bohemian/artsy area much like Brooklyn has become in NYC. If you read further, I suggest that Tampa will become a nice secondary city. I don't expect it to reach NYC levels, or even pass Miami or Atlanta for that matter. Just be in the same sentence as Austin, San Diego, etc.
However, I disagree PROFOUNDLY with this statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by powellmacaque
And the type of entertainment you describe is just old guard entertainment. Yes, I do appreciate ballet and classical, but I think the demographic in NYC (upper class) caters more to that type of entertainment.
Nowhere else in the world classical arts are associated with some high class society. This has to do with the amount of personal culture one is willing to absorb. Nobody is ever going to stop someone from the middle class from seeing a Philharmonic concert, or a ballet! These days it has purely to do with commodity, and laziness! The tickets are no more expensive than Cirque Du Soleil, or a Daughtry Concert. OR even a football game. This has to do with someone's ability to get dressed nicely, (and not over the top as I've seen some do in Miami as if it was some Oscar ceremony), and get out, and see something different for a change. The football game will still be sitting on your DVR later.
While I agree that the lifestyles are completely different, I don't think that can be used as an excuse one does not go out to see something other than a football game, or a pop/rock concert. The arts & entertainment don't stop there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by powellmacaque
Also, I think there is a big cultural difference between the Northeast and the Southeast. In the Northeast, everybody wants to be entertained (fair enough, it's brutally cold for 6 months and muggy as crap for 2 months). In the Southeast, people like to entertain themselves; going to the beach, playing golf, water sports, etc. One style isn't inherently better, it's just different.
Exactly right. It is UNIQUE, and it is not fair for any other city to be compared with it. (For the other city' sake)
Quote:
Originally Posted by powellmacaque
Sorry if I offended beloved NYC. I've been there quite a few times and yes it's truly unique. I forget that some people have the "Beatles' " complex when it comes to NYC, you can't compare anything or you can't even talk about it without somebody getting all bent out of shape claiming its superiority.
It is superior in so many ways though...you can't take that way from it; but you also cannot expect that every downtown should be exactly like it. THAT would kill its uniqueness!
It wont go anywhere until the mentality changes which it does not want to do. Few people embrace different cultures and actually promote it, it's is all sublime. Everybody stay in their quiet corner and asimilate to the rest. YES they left the craziness of the city and in noways want it here. Tampa has natural beauty, and new construction compared to some cities etc, but the heart of a metropolitan city it does not. For instance, the local news 3 out of the 4 headlines have to do with sports, not international news or thinsg that affect anyone but tampanians. A metro city knows it's citizens are from many places with familes abroad, in other cities etc. and wnat to know whats going on. Its just NOT broadminded,,,
I stopped reading around the time you compared Brandon to ANY major city... Much less a borough in New York.
I'd like to see Tampa become a major city. There are a TON of problems with that, though. The biggest I've experienced so far include:
-There are a LOT of north easterners (from one state in particular who get upset when you call them out) who moved down here to avoid their home state for one reason or another (high taxes, too crowded, etc) who refuse to allow Tampa to live to it's full potential.
-Big cities are GENERALLY more liberal, and liberal cities GENERALLY have much younger people living in them.
-Tampa has a lot of retirees and people looking for a "great place to raise a family." And Tampa mayors have been too afraid to tell them that that's what the suburbs (IE: Valrico, Brandon, Seffner, Lutz, Land O Lakes, Wesley Chapel, Zephyrhills, New Port Richey, etc) are for.
-Residents (snow birds and transplants) refuse to allow the taxes to go up (by as little as a penny) so we can make improvements to the city.
-Very few people who live here are actually FROM here. They don't have the same emotional attachment for the city.
Until, at the very least, some of these issues are addressed, Tampa will continue on just as it is.
Once you grow up and start a family you will understand... cant help you now. You will find out the "downtown" lifestyle is not conducive to having a family.
I realize that, I just think it's unfair to be blaming Tampa for "not catering to different demographics" when 99% of families are looking to live in the suburbs and find all of their entertainment within those suburbs. If a small and growing downtown such as Tampa's wants to attract people and businesses, it's smart for going after a demographic that is much more willing to move there and bolster the economy. If that means more bars/clubs/high rises/football/sports venues and less theater/arts options in the near future, then that's smart...and once money is gained from those endeavors, it can then be put back into the arts and into improvements that cater to the suburban dwellers.
A lot of young people these days are seeking a different lifestyle from the one in the burbs. I think it's even fair to say if Tampa doesn't cater to this then most young people avoid Tampa entirely and just migrate back north...which really does hurt the city's economy...and then further improvements will rarely ever happen.
It is superior in so many ways though...you can't take that way from it; but you also cannot expect that every downtown should be exactly like it. THAT would kill its uniqueness![/QUOTE]
It's different. Not superior. More infamous? Absolutely. But superior is rather ethnocentric, no?
I could rattle off quite a few things about TB that make it superior (to me). In fact, I think I will:
1. Warm weather. And honestly, NYC's balmy humidity and sun bouncing off of the concrete and glass make it every bit as unbearable as the hottest day in July in Tampa.
2. Air quality. You don't have sewer smoke pouring into the streets here. You're not bombarded with the smell of exhaust as soon as you crack open a window.
3. College football. You've got Rutgers, UConn, Army, and Stony Brook within the NYC metro. I love Army football, family used to have season tickets, but it's not exactly a powerhouse like it was back in the 40s. We've got USF, the re-ignition of the War on I-4 with UCF, and the Florida Gators 2-ish hours away. We've also got some of the best high school football in the country.
4. Try going to a Yankees game for cheap. Try getting tickets for a Knicks-Celtics game. Try getting out of the Meadowlands after any event (although I haven't been since they rebuilt Giants stadium, it might be improved but I doubt it).
5. Our bridges are free (for now). It's like $8 to cross the GWB.
6. Beaches.
7. Gasparilla.
8. Try getting a Cuban sandwich in NYC. Or Cuban food in general. Or grits. Or country-fried steak.
9. We're a cruise ship hub.
10. Sport fishing, both fresh and saltwater. Some of the fish you pull up out of the Hudson might have 3 eyes and 1 fin.
Those are just ten reasons, I'm sure many others could rattle off more. And I'm sure you could just as easily write some of those off as "not that important." Just as easily as I could write off the New York Philharmonic as a waste of $75 and three hours (I don't really feel that way). The point is New York is no better culturally than Buffalo or Tampa or San Diego or Des Moines. It's just different. This wasn't supposed to be a NYC vs Tampa thread, it was supposed to be a "how can we improve our standing with the rest of the country/ourselves" thread.
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