Tampa: America's hottest mess (St. Petersburg: purchasing, restaurants, law)

[chi_tino]

Originally Posted by tampagator89

If you were a CEO of a major business and was thinking of expanding to downtown Tampa

That's your incorrect assumption right off the bat. There is no significant advantage to be located in downtown Tampa. The market has already spoken. That's why a vast majority of new businesses are moving into Rocky Point, Westshore, Carillon, etc. The rents are lower, the parking is free, the traffic is manageable, it's closer to TPA and there's no homeless scum urinating on your SUV.

Heck, if your company is truly a "major business", they can buy/build their own building/office park out of downtown. Should HSN/Jabil/Raymond James/etc abandon their campuses and pack themselves into a highrise?

[FloridaKash]

Originally Posted by chi_tino

That's your incorrect assumption right off the bat. There is no significant advantage to be located in downtown Tampa. The market has already spoken. That's why a vast majority of new businesses are moving into Rocky Point, Westshore, Carillon, etc. The rents are lower, the parking is free, the traffic is manageable, it's closer to TPA and there's no homeless scum urinating on your SUV.

Heck, if your company is truly a "major business", they can buy/build their own building/office park out of downtown. Should HSN/Jabil/Raymond James/etc abandon their campuses and pack themselves into a highrise?

Absolutely agree. Downtown Tampa is not easy to access, is not near the airport and provides no advantage over a different, more convenient location that has ample parking and cheaper rent.

[chi_tino]

If it isn't already, Westshore will soon be considered the "business center" of the Tampa Bay area. The number of current Class A buildings already there and, amazingly, still being built, will dwarf downtown's available square footage.

If there is a single advantage that downtown Tampa has over Westshore for businesses*, I would love to know what it is.


* "Sustainability", "a sense of community", "diversity" and other b.s. buzzwords will not be accepted

[thethinktank]

Originally Posted by chi_tino

If there is a single advantage that downtown Tampa has over Westshore for businesses*, I would love to know what it is.

1) Immediate access to Hillsborough County and city government buildings.
2) Immediate access to the Tampa Convention Center.
3) Walkable access to a large collection of restaurants during business hours.
4) Increasing residential development within the reach of the commercial zones.
5) Close access to regional highways I-75 and I-4 compared to metro-only immediate access of Westshore.

[tampagator89]

Originally Posted by chi_tino

That's your incorrect assumption right off the bat. There is no significant advantage to be located in downtown Tampa. The market has already spoken. That's why a vast majority of new businesses are moving into Rocky Point, Westshore, Carillon, etc. The rents are lower, the parking is free, the traffic is manageable, it's closer to TPA and there's no homeless scum urinating on your SUV.

Heck, if your company is truly a "major business", they can buy/build their own building/office park out of downtown. Should HSN/Jabil/Raymond James/etc abandon their campuses and pack themselves into a highrise?

Fine then...

If you were a CEO and thinking of expanding to Tampa AT ALL...including Westshore...would you? You can't hide from the problems this area has! You can move to whichever district you want and you'll still be staring down the barrel of a financial gun.

You actually helped prove my point. Why are there business districts in Westshore, some in downtown, some in New Tampa...so on and so forth? I can't think of any other functional city where the CBD is detached from the real business part of the city. And Westshore is not meant to be a CBD...it's just an alternate area that took off as a business region because everyone around here has tightwadded the downtown region until just recently. If I were that big CEO I would look at that and laugh and think to myself "Where do I even move here? Why would it be worth it to build my own high-rise downtown if it's not even the hub of the region? What a waste!" Do you know how much of a joke it looks to people that our downtown region isn't the CBD of the area? We're not "rethinking how to build a city"...that's just head-scratching urban development that doesn't want to make up its mind, and it reeks of immaturity and lack of urban planning.

You scoff at the idea that social engineering is important. Okay, so let's step away from commercial economics for a second and focus on social economics. Hypothetical situation: I am a young person. I have no family and no kids to feed. I have disposable income to plug into the area's economy. I am willing to pay more in taxes, because I have more money and I want to see the region around me grow. I was successful in college and graduated with a high GPA, and can get a job almost anywhere, and I have gotten offers from companies in New York, Chicago, Charlotte, Houston, and Tampa. I grew up in a suburb somewhere and want to live and work in a downtown environment. I am a necessary component and very desirable to a city economically. Would I choose Tampa over these other cities? Would you, if you were in this person's shoes? I certainly doubt it.

[GoRays813]

Westshore is absolutely not meant to be a CBD. The infrastructure just doesn't support it. I'm sure that it developed that way because people got too lazy to head downtown when driving in from Pinellas county. Or because Westshore seemed more central for the entire Bay area before northeastern and eastern Hillsborough county developed.

Atlanta has a downtown, midtown, and even uptown although I'm not suggesting that this is manageable for Tampa. I'd like to see downtown Tampa develop exponentially and allow Westshore to consolidate and ease the stress on that area's infrastructure.

[chi_tino]

Originally Posted by GoRays813

Westshore is absolutely not meant to be a CBD. The infrastructure just doesn't support it.

It could be argued that the Westshore area has superior infrastructure: better traffic, more hotel rooms, and plenty of free parking.

We can argue the theoretical differences between the two all day, but businesses put their money where their mouths are and the markets have spoken. A drive down Boy Scout Blvd will show you a number of newly opened Class A business towers and others under construction (250,000 sq ft currently being built). Parking will still be plentiful and free, and even more restaurants and hotels are popping up. Plus, there is a good deal of additional real estate for more growth. It's not even close to being maxed out.

Why are people building new office parks in Westshore while the downtown Tampa vacancy rates are at 19% (source: Tampa Downtown Partnership) and near an all-time high? Apparently businesses don't feel that "proximity to government buildings and convention center" are a reason to pay a premium price for an inferior product.

[thethinktank]

Originally Posted by chi_tino

We can argue the theoretical differences between the two all day, but businesses put their money where their mouths are and the markets have spoken.

Ahh yes, I see you're no stranger to the moving goal post.

Originally Posted by chi_tino

A drive down Boy Scout Blvd will show you a number of newly opened Class A business towers and others under construction

And equally well-versed in anecdotal evidence.

Originally Posted by chi_tino

Why are people building new office parks in Westshore while the downtown Tampa vacancy rates are at 19%

And out-of-date numbers, too. In Q1 of 2012, according to the Westshore Alliance, the downtown office vacancy rate was 16.8%. In the same stretch, the Westshore office vacancy rate was 15.1%.

Originally Posted by chi_tino

Apparently businesses don't feel that "proximity to government buildings and convention center" are a reason to pay a premium price for an inferior product.

Emphasis mine. You're declaring it an inferior product based on your own subjective opinion. What's the point of having a public discussion if that's the base of your argument? It also doesn't help that your M.O. is largely condescending and argumentative, let alone factually flimsy. I'm sure no one here would disagree that Westshore's commercial district has a lot of value to many companies. Many of which find the cost savings more attractive than the amenities of downtown Tampa. Your hyperbole about it, on the other hand, come on dude.

Proximity to major thoroughfares, universities, convention centers and government buildings are an important part of location decisions for businesses. Walkable access to amenities like restaurants, parks and entertainment are also important. These are advantages that downtown Tampa has over Westshore whether you want to dismiss them or not. The sum total of these parts yields a culture that attracts businesses and the professionals that work there, universities and the students that learn there, developers and residents that live there and even, for a recent anecdote, the political conventions that take place there.

[testa50]

I'm from Atlanta and don't post outside the forum much but this thread caught my eye. What's striking is you could change some names here and there and it might as well be in the Atlanta forum.

I'm actually pleasantly impressed by Tampa. Lots of nice brick streets. Ybor is a bigger nightlife concentration than Atlanta can muster (Atlanta's is all divided up into different scenes). Lots of promising stuff happening in the Channel District. Intown neighborhoods have some character. I'd absolutely never ever live in Orlando, but Tampa would be okay. The only place besides Miami in FL I would consider living. It actually reminds me of Atlanta a lot more than I thought it would.

You really need to fill in the area between Downtown and the Channel District--then you'd have a cohesive urban area with some heft to it. The gap is only 6-8 measly blocks. But I know how hard it actually is: Atlanta has been trying to "work" on the area between Downtown and Midtown--roughly the same distance--for years, and to little avail. Developers go for the middle of thriving areas, not the outskirts.

But I don't have a car in Atlanta and I don't think that would be possible in Tampa...probably no matter what transit expansions you can come up with. There's just not an urban core full of stuff you need on a day to day basis. So that's a shame. But you guys are hardly alone in that boat. (In Atlanta, we get raked over the coals endlessly for not being Boston, Chicago, or NYC with regard to urbanity or public transit.)

Also there was a bit of Tampa-envy going around when you guys won the Time Warner jobs.

[the awesomee]

Originally Posted by testa50

Ybor is a bigger nightlife concentration than Atlanta can muster (Atlanta's is all divided up into different scenes). Lots of promising stuff happening in the Channel District.

HELLO 2002! you goto ybor these days you might get shot in the face...Westshore has been popping lately, when was the last time you were here? There are a few lounges in downtown now which ARE promising, martini republic for one.