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Old 11-01-2013, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Places you dream of
20,060 posts, read 12,036,753 times
Reputation: 8697

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I don't mind paying taxes it's what the crap they spend it on that gets me- ""the let's play golf and you get your thing done so you can make a good return ($$) wink wink""... and forget the masses and their future needs... greedy bsrd%^%- we would have PLENTY of money- if we got rid of the greedy people... SOME- of the older crowd suffer too- some greedy as well
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Wake County, NC
2,983 posts, read 3,779,000 times
Reputation: 3505
Quote:
Originally Posted by BucFan View Post
Sorry to break the news to you, but there will always be older people in our country unless you plan on killing them all off. Maybe someday you will get old. But trust me, there are millions of people in this country who've gotten tired of paying excessive taxes, old and young. You're just not one of them.
Younger people are more progressive. They would be much more willing to see their tax dollars go to something to improve their city. Hell, even the newer baby boomers are more progressive.

I don't want to make this too political, but there is a reason one group is trying hard to restrict voting rights from this demographic. A fool from my home state recently confirmed this on national TV.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:25 PM
 
451 posts, read 813,220 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PriusH8r View Post
Youth = Ignorance about life. They are dreamers or haters, but passionate either way.....even though they are usually misguided.
I'm surprised overt ageism is tolerated here. If it were reversed, I imagine such a comment wouldn't stand without being deleted by a mod.

Signed,
"An ignorant, misguided hater" according to PriusH8R.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:54 PM
 
451 posts, read 813,220 times
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Originally Posted by BucFan View Post
Sorry to break the news to you, but there will always be older people in our country
This is a shrinking voting block in the context of urbanization. Fortunately, it's not a "dying" voting block as other commenters have quite unkindly suggested, it's more of a migrating voting block.

Urbanization is largely driven by youth. For the first time in decades, the 2010 census showed that urban zip codes are growing at a faster rate than suburban and rural zip codes. This is largely driven by young people moving to cities for education and employment and sticking to this lifestyle instead of moving out to the suburbs. Inversely, retirement age people are doing the opposite.

The City of Tampa will significantly increase in density over the next three years, and the people moving in will largely be young, 18-40. My zip code is a prime example, adding around 300 permanent apartment/condo homes by early 2014 on top of about 500 student homes just finished at UT. These changes will have a significant impact on voting (save for the students who are mostly-but-not-all temporary), and the older more resistant voters will have an increasingly limited voice.

And the thing is, the next generation of Tampa citizens are likely to expect certain things from their city that aren't already available. We also don't expect to be paying as little as $4.00/gallon for gas in 10 years. And we don't expect (or want) everyone to afford electric vehicles by then. Cheaper, safer, healthier and more economically-productive transit alternatives like local rail aren't a pipe dream in our eyes, they're a necessary eventuality.
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Old 11-02-2013, 07:53 AM
 
Location: North of South, South of North
8,706 posts, read 8,778,625 times
Reputation: 5072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_liking_FL View Post
I don't want to make this too political, but there is a reason one group is trying hard to restrict voting rights from this demographic. A fool from my home state recently confirmed this on national TV.
No groups are trying to restrict voting rights. That is just a made up, false argument from one side. I can't believe anyone is gullible enough to believe it, yet many are.
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:34 AM
BBI
 
490 posts, read 808,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethinktank View Post
Urbanization is largely driven by youth. For the first time in decades, the 2010 census showed that urban zip codes are growing at a faster rate than suburban and rural zip codes. This is largely driven by young people moving to cities for education and employment and sticking to this lifestyle instead of moving out to the suburbs. Inversely, retirement age people are doing the opposite.
The key trends, in my view, are (i) that it is acceptable to get married/have kids much later in life, or not at all, and (ii) that so many now graduate in significant debt and with limited job prospects. Both strike me as huge urban living drivers.

The challenge this area faces, from an urbanization perspective, is land use planning, not transportation. Here in St. Pete, for example, residential development is downtown; business development is up in Gateway/Carillon. Successfully encourage those jobs to move downtown, and low-income neighborhoods within walking distance (Uptown, Roser Park, etc.) should gentrify quickly. Should the city develop to the point that neighborhoods adjacent to downtown are fully gentrified and built out, then we should talk about public transportation needs. But, today, building a train to connect whatever (I'm not even sure what you'd connect in St. Pete) is putting the cart before the horse. In fact, if you connected our residential and business centers in St. Pete by rail, it would be counterproductive to urbanization because it would lower incentives to bring work and play into one neighborhood. Moreover, moving employers should be cheaper than buliding rail, and could be accomplished with much less political fanfare/fighting.

But, in this discussion, it is important to remember that this is a significant retirement center, and that's unlikely to change. Retiree goals/perspectives are going to be major factors in what my city chooses to do. For instance, if you talk to Foster, he'll tell you that he'd prefer business development downtown to up in the Gateway area. But, instead of spending $50 million to move several thousand jobs downtown, we are going to spend $50 million to build a pier for old people to walk around and eat ice cream. That is what it is, and it's something I accepted before moving here. No sense in a young(ish) man trying to fight a generation war, especially not in this area.

Last edited by BBI; 11-02-2013 at 08:48 AM..
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Old 11-02-2013, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Places you dream of
20,060 posts, read 12,036,753 times
Reputation: 8697
Quote:
Originally Posted by PriusH8r View Post
No groups are trying to restrict voting rights. That is just a made up, false argument from one side. I can't believe anyone is gullible enough to believe it, yet many are.
what!@!!???
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Old 11-02-2013, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Places you dream of
20,060 posts, read 12,036,753 times
Reputation: 8697
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBI View Post
The key trends, in my view, are (i) that it is acceptable to get married/have kids much later in life, or not at all, and (ii) that so many now graduate in significant debt and with limited job prospects. Both strike me as huge urban living drivers.

The challenge this area faces, from an urbanization perspective, is land use planning, not transportation. Here in St. Pete, for example, residential development is downtown; business development is up in Gateway/Carillon. Successfully encourage those jobs to move downtown, and low-income neighborhoods within walking distance (Uptown, Roser Park, etc.) should gentrify quickly. Should the city develop to the point that neighborhoods adjacent to downtown are fully gentrified and built out, then we should talk about public transportation needs. But, today, building a train to connect whatever (I'm not even sure what you'd connect in St. Pete) is putting the cart before the horse. In fact, if you connected our residential and business centers in St. Pete by rail, it would be counterproductive to urbanization because it would lower incentives to bring work and play into one neighborhood. Moreover, moving employers should be cheaper than buliding rail, and could be accomplished with much less political fanfare/fighting.

But, in this discussion, it is important to remember that this is a significant retirement center, and that's unlikely to change. Retiree goals/perspectives are going to be major factors in what my city chooses to do. For instance, if you talk to Foster, he'll tell you that he'd prefer business development downtown to up in the Gateway area. But, instead of spending $50 million to move several thousand jobs downtown, we are going to spend $50 million to build a pier for old people to walk around and eat ice cream. That is what it is, and it's something I accepted before moving here. No sense in a young(ish) man trying to fight a generation war, especially not in this area.
That is exactly what has to be changed, and will be if the mayor has anything to do with it-- JOBS is the only thing that will keep this place afloat and retirees do not work. In time it must BE balanced. The wealthy used to come to FL and some still do, but now they go to Costa Rica etc etc, abroad is the new " IN" with internet and upgrades of US dollars overseas where the wine fridge is now available,,, FL is not #1. and 2- kids gone wild,,, they already implanted those good old days in Cancun to the next generation where to retire 20yrs from now! do you not see the daily posts... on here "coming to FL looking for jobs- where to live" --
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Old 11-02-2013, 11:11 AM
BBI
 
490 posts, read 808,224 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinytrump View Post
That is exactly what has to be changed, and will be if the mayor has anything to do with it-- JOBS is the only thing that will keep this place afloat and retirees do not work. In time it must BE balanced. The wealthy used to come to FL and some still do, but now they go to Costa Rica etc etc, abroad is the new " IN" with internet and upgrades of US dollars overseas where the wine fridge is now available,,, FL is not #1. and 2- kids gone wild,,, they already implanted those good old days in Cancun to the next generation where to retire 20yrs from now! do you not see the daily posts... on here "coming to FL looking for jobs- where to live" --
I view significant retiree demand as a positive for St. Pete. Retirees are always going to have a very political voice here. It is important, as you point out, to ensure that the local economy is not entirely dependent on them -- or any single constituency/demographic, for that matter. But I view older folks as an asset, not a problem. The key, as with any demographic, is to attract the right segment of the population. If I can crudely lump a couple of groups together, I'd strongly prefer downtown condo retirees come here than trailer park retirees. Same way I'd rather attract 'young professionals' than the 'moving without a job' crowd. Frankly, when we talk about urbanization in St. Pete, a very significant portion of the demand to build out and improve downtown St. Pete is coming from retirees. That population is aligned with me in most ways.

This is the bigger issue in generational warfare: a generation is a group of people who happened to be born within the same period (however defined). For instance, contrary to the other poster's thought, I would certainly want cheap electric vehicles to be available to the masses (to help break dependence on foreign oil), and improving health or safety is not a priority for me with respect to transportation issues. This sort of generational grouping is especially problematic when talking about young generations, like us Millenials, since many are still children (at least in terms of social expectations) and preferences will change as they become independent adults.
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Old 11-02-2013, 11:40 AM
 
451 posts, read 813,220 times
Reputation: 744
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBI View Post
The key trends, in my view, are (i) that it is acceptable to get married/have kids much later in life, or not at all, and (ii) that so many now graduate in significant debt and with limited job prospects. Both strike me as huge urban living drivers.
Fully agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBI View Post
The challenge this area faces, from an urbanization perspective, is land use planning, not transportation. Here in St. Pete, for example, residential development is downtown; business development is up in Gateway/Carillon. Successfully encourage those jobs to move downtown, and low-income neighborhoods within walking distance (Uptown, Roser Park, etc.) should gentrify quickly. Should the city develop to the point that neighborhoods adjacent to downtown are fully gentrified and built out, then we should talk about public transportation needs. But, today, building a train to connect whatever (I'm not even sure what you'd connect in St. Pete) is putting the cart before the horse. In fact, if you connected our residential and business centers in St. Pete by rail, it would be counterproductive to urbanization because it would lower incentives to bring work and play into one neighborhood. Moreover, moving employers should be cheaper than buliding rail, and could be accomplished with much less political fanfare/fighting.
The situation within the City of Tampa is very different from the situation in St. Pete. It's hard to have a conversation about rail in St. Pete without opening things up to greater Pinellas. In Tampa, there's a collection of logical hubs that could be connected that are all within the city limits-- TPA, USF, downtown, westshore business district, etc. The areas between these hubs are residential. Westshore and Downtown have dense residential populations, with the latter increasing dramatically in the next three years. Here, local rail between these hubs isn't counterproductive to urbanization. It helps facilitate the process and would connect Tampa's most dense residential centers with its highest volume commercial centers with just a handful of stations.

This is one of the most misunderstood issues with rail in Tampa. The City of Tampa itself would stand to benefit from local rail lines within its city limits. The greater Tampa Bay region is too sprawling, distant and low-density to support a sustainable regional light rail system. Each population center within the greater Tampa Bay region has its own set of unique characteristics that may or may not warrant rail transit. For now, there's no reasonable virtue of connecting them by rail. In short, Light Rail for Tampa Bay? Not yet, no. Local Rail within Tampa alone? Absolutely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBI View Post
But, in this discussion, it is important to remember that this is a significant retirement center, and that's unlikely to change. Retiree goals/perspectives are going to be major factors in what my city chooses to do. For instance, if you talk to Foster, he'll tell you that he'd prefer business development downtown to up in the Gateway area. But, instead of spending $50 million to move several thousand jobs downtown, we are going to spend $50 million to build a pier for old people to walk around and eat ice cream. That is what it is, and it's something I accepted before moving here. No sense in a young(ish) man trying to fight a generation war, especially not in this area.
This, again, is a characteristic that is true in St. Pete but not in Tampa. 33% of Tampa's population is age 45 and above. 41% of St. Pete's population is 45 and above.

In Tampa, the 20-40 group is the fastest growing population group. It made up much of the 10,000 that moved to Tampa between March 2010 and June of 2011, myself included. In that same period, St. Pete added 228 people. [source]

There are very different needs, very different changes and very different populations between Tampa and St. Pete. Tampa is ripe for local rail, and has a great chance of reaching sustainability in the short term. In St. Pete, I don't think there's a need or a clear purpose.

(and to be clear, I don't point any of this out to stir a Tampa vs. St. Pete debate, just to illustrate the nuance between the two in the context of rail service. St. Pete is the pearl of the Tampa Bay and its idiosyncrasies make it the rare gem that it is)
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