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Old 01-18-2016, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Spring Hill Florida
12,135 posts, read 13,255,383 times
Reputation: 6010

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDF View Post
Wow! Big me right there. People snatch drinks all the time in way less "threatening" situations...nobody ever got killed over it.
Really? When was the last time a complete stranger took property from you without your consent?


If you were walking down the street chatting on your phone and some stranger ran up to you, grabbed the phone right out of your hand would you say "ah, no big deal" and walk on?
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Old 01-18-2016, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Spring Hill Florida
12,135 posts, read 13,255,383 times
Reputation: 6010
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUNNDFRNT View Post
Then what's the point? If you can't bring it up on court, then we might as well say he was speeding on his way to the movies, it's irrelevant. The reason is irrelevant because our justice system relies on the interpretation of law that law clearly does not apply to this case.

It was relevant to Reeves at the moment it occurred. That action would cause me to believe that further action by the aggressor may be forthcoming and I would be prepared to defend myself against further attack.


You cant charge a dead man with a crime but the fact the sudden snatching took place will certainly be a subject at the trial. The sudden snatching is one of the crimes Oulson committed in the time after he stood, turned towards Reeves to begin his assault. That's the point.
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Old 01-18-2016, 10:35 AM
 
Location: South Tampa
1,160 posts, read 1,738,877 times
Reputation: 1041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spring Hillian View Post
Really? When was the last time a complete stranger took property from you without your consent?


If you were walking down the street chatting on your phone and some stranger ran up to you, grabbed the phone right out of your hand would you say "ah, no big deal" and walk on?
I'd call the cops and see what happens. At worst, I'd chase them down and take what was mine. In the event I didn't get my phone back, it is just a phone...it's replaceable.

I certainly wouldn't shoot someone for taking my phone out of my hand. It's called discretion.

Look, we have discussed this in other topics and everyone gets it- you like to focus and bend the technicalities to show this act was "okay" or "within the lines" of a normal response. Common sense says you don't shoot someone who takes your popcorn. This isn't Dodge City and it isn't the 1870s. We also aren't 3 year olds in a playground sandbox. Anyone who thinks that this geezer's reaction of shooting someone over his texting frustrations and having popcorn thrown at him is justified is just as crazy in my book.

Curtis Reeves should pay the maximum price for his actions and get the DP...but we know that won't happen. Oulson didn't have that choice.

Last edited by SeaSpur; 01-18-2016 at 10:45 AM..
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Old 01-18-2016, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Places you dream of
20,256 posts, read 12,123,341 times
Reputation: 8779
Anger is the problem- neither of them had control-- two lose cannons - wait until open carry law passes--
but I will say-- a trained man... who was a teacher- and had experience-- should have NOT pulled his weapon over popcorn. It was obvious Oulsen was there to watch a movie and have a good time-- not sitting waiting to rob him or rape his wife or start a fight- sorry- His response was NOT in agreement with his training-
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Old 01-18-2016, 10:59 AM
 
4,825 posts, read 3,481,146 times
Reputation: 2862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spring Hillian View Post
You cant charge a dead man with a crime but the fact the sudden snatching took place will certainly be a subject at the trial. The sudden snatching is one of the crimes Oulson committed in the time after he stood, turned towards Reeves to begin his assault. That's the point.
Thats my point, if they bring it up at trial, meaning in one of his statement the defense lawyer says "Oulson committed a felony called "burglary by sudden snatching" by taking my clients popcorn from his bag and throwing it at him" that moment will cause him to lose all credibility and most likely lots of snickering. Its my opinion that the defense will stay away from that, so if it doesn't come up on the trial to either paint the picture of the event or of Oulsons character then it didn't happen as far as the trial goes.
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Old 01-18-2016, 11:07 AM
 
699 posts, read 439,894 times
Reputation: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaSpur View Post
Curtis Reeves should pay the maximum price for his actions and get the DP...but we know that won't happen. Oulson didn't have that choice.
This is not about taking someone's popcorn, but SYG - Curtis Reeves was acting appropriately within SYG statues - I'm as sure as I can be that he will get off.

SYG allows you to use deadly force if you're fearing your life to be in danger or if you fear you're in risk of bodily harm. Meaning if you're afraid someone may punch you, you can use deadly force. And Curtis Reeves had more than enough to go by - Chad Oluson was being agitated - he had leaped into his personal space and snatched his popcorn and chucked it at him.

Whether you like it or not - these kinds of cases were what SYG was originally drafted to protect. Not clear cases where one person has a gun, or something immediately threatening like that - for those types of cases SYG is not even needed (Zimmermann for example didn't even use SYG for his defense of the shooting of Trayvon Martin). SYG is needed for situations like this, where one party had to use deadly force to protect himself from physical harm - whether that physical harm is a bruise, broken nose, or even more damaging. Everyone has a right to use whatever force necessary to stop being assaulted, even in the mildest forms.
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Old 01-18-2016, 11:22 AM
 
Location: South Tampa
1,160 posts, read 1,738,877 times
Reputation: 1041
Quote:
Originally Posted by miami_winter_breeze View Post
This is not about taking someone's popcorn, but SYG - Curtis Reeves was acting appropriately within SYG statues - I'm as sure as I can be that he will get off.

SYG allows you to use deadly force if you're fearing your life to be in danger or if you fear you're in risk of bodily harm. Meaning if you're afraid someone may punch you, you can use deadly force. And Curtis Reeves had more than enough to go by - Chad Oluson was being agitated - he had leaped into his personal space and snatched his popcorn and chucked it at him.

Whether you like it or not - these kinds of cases were what SYG was originally drafted to protect. Not clear cases where one person has a gun, or something immediately threatening like that - for those types of cases SYG is not even needed (Zimmermann for example didn't even use SYG for his defense of the shooting of Trayvon Martin). SYG is needed for situations like this, where one party had to use deadly force to protect himself from physical harm - whether that physical harm is a bruise, broken nose, or even more damaging. Everyone has a right to use whatever force necessary to stop being assaulted, even in the mildest forms.
I'm sorry...can you clarify for me because your explanation of SYG is not what I understand it to be. My understanding is certainly not that you can "use whatever force necessary" to prevent simply being "assaulted."

Instead, isn't it that you can use necessary force if you reasonably believe that doing so will prevent death or extreme bodily harm?

That is quite different than preventing a simple assault, no?

If my understanding is correct versus yours- Reeves' belief was not reasonable. Oulson was in that movie theater to watch a movie, not get involved in a argument and be shot. To add, taking popcorn is important here because that simple act doesn't establish (in any sane mind) that you are in imminent danger of losing your life or being extremely injured (unless allergic to butter).
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Old 01-18-2016, 11:31 AM
 
699 posts, read 439,894 times
Reputation: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaSpur View Post
I'm sorry...can you clarify for me because your explanation of SYG is not what I understand it to be. My understanding is certainly not that you can "use whatever force necessary" to prevent simply being "assaulted."

Instead, isn't it that you can use necessary force if you reasonably believe that doing so will prevent death or extreme bodily harm?

That is quite different than preventing a simple assault, no?

If my understanding is correct versus yours- Reeves' belief was not reasonable. Oulson was in that movie theater to watch a movie, not get involved in a argument and be shot. To add, taking popcorn is important here because that simple act doesn't establish (in any sane mind) that you are in imminent danger of losing your life or being extremely injured (unless allergic to butter).
It's great bodily harm, not "extreme" though I'm not sure it matters to quibble on these words.

I think most people would consider being punched, 'great' bodily harm especially when the person being punched is a 70+ year old man, and the person doing the punching is a 40 year old man.

SYG doesn't require the punching to take place, just the reasonable fear that it can take place. And I'm sorry but Curtis Reeves had reasonable fear - Chad Oulson had lunged into his space and grabbed his popcorn, and tossed at him - this time. However, next time it could be a punch. Chad was acting unstable, aggressive, and violent.
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Old 01-18-2016, 11:39 AM
 
Location: South Tampa
1,160 posts, read 1,738,877 times
Reputation: 1041
Quote:
Originally Posted by miami_winter_breeze View Post
It's great bodily harm, not "extreme" though I'm not sure it matters to quibble on these words.

I think most people would consider being punched, 'great' bodily harm especially when the person being punched is a 70+ year old man, and the person doing the punching is a 40 year old man.

SYG doesn't require the punching to take place, just the reasonable fear that it can take place. And I'm sorry but Curtis Reeves had reasonable fear - Chad Oulson had lunged into his space and grabbed his popcorn, and tossed at him - this time. However, next time it could be a punch. Chad was acting unstable, aggressive, and violent.
I hope I don't live in a world that considers a punch "great bodily harm." Getting stabbed, shot, losing a limb, being electrocuted, being poisoned, and many other events I can think of that say "great bodily harm" but a punch or kick is not one of them. I hope the judge shares my opinion.

Point remains that your original definition of SYG is flawed and I would suspect your feelings on how this should play out are now tarnished/warped due to it.

Sidenote:

If I walk into a military bar at 2am and start burning an American flag, I have a very reasonable fear that my ass is going to be kicked with great power. Without a single punch being thrown or word spouted...do I now have basis to begin shooting each of them that turns my direction with a look of distaste? I provoked them just as Curtis provoked Chad.

Answer is: No, because I am not crazy and live in a world where grey areas exist and everything isn't black and white. Yet Chad is the unstable and violent one?!? I am not sure I want to live in this country sometimes.

Last edited by SeaSpur; 01-18-2016 at 11:47 AM..
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Old 01-18-2016, 11:53 AM
 
699 posts, read 439,894 times
Reputation: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaSpur View Post

Answer is: No, because I am not crazy and live in a world where grey areas exist and everything isn't black and white. Yet Chad is the unstable and violent one?!? I am not sure I want to live in this country sometimes.
Well the answer is Yes despite you trying to answer it for yourself, indeed you could shoot to defend yourself despite you being the initial provoker. SYG is not concerned with who provoked the argument, there have been numerous successful SYG defenses here in Florida from people who originally started the argument via name calling or other silly things like.

Self defense is a right of anyone. If you're prepared to punch someone, you should be prepared that person will defend themselves to the point they will kill you. If you cannot live with that, don't punch them.

SYG is only concerned with the immediate moments prior to the deadly use of force. Not the overall context.There is no provision in SYG that goes : "Well, while he was worried about being inflicted grave bodily harm, he did act like a jerk moments before insulting his mother"
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