Tampa #2 on Forbes.com Top 10 U.S. Cities in Economic Freefall (University: rental, unemployment)

[housingcrashsurvivor]

I neither read in nor quoted from the first article cited anything about anyone discussing how wages here might ever rival some other state's metropolitan areas. That article simply stated that a particularly respected local economist expected Tampa Bay area wages to "grow near the fastest pace in the state over the next three years". The comparison was domestic, not interstate.

It does not even make sense to pay wages here as you would pay them where the cost of living is so much higher. To live as well as you'd live in NYC on $50k/year, according to Moderator cut: link removed it takes just $28,753, according to Cost of living: Compare prices in two cities - CNNMoney.com it takes $21,593 & according to Cost of Living comparison calculator it takes $22,640. So why pay twice that here?

Florida wages will come up as the cost of living does. Which will make it more difficult for the many here on a fixed income. But will wage raises match $4$ cost of living? Highly unlikely where living just keeps getting more expensive. So not here, and probably not anywhere in this country as there is a very good chance that the standard of living will be declining in the USA over the next generation or two.

Given that, lower wages here might very well be enticement to import new industry, so it could be seen as beneficial and not just a condition to trash.

I do not understand your criticism of someone from a chamber of commerce, whose job it is to encourage & facilitate business, whereby you would say "he's right about one thing", implying there are many things he is wrong about without specifying which of those things you might disagree nor how you might correct them. And so I do not know what you found "ironic" about that.

In the second article I cited, the CEO of a chamber of commerce criticized government for (hopefully only temporarily) dropping the ball on biotech. I've long felt that Florida needs shift subsidizing developers to offering tax breaks (conditional upon promises being fulfilled) to more sustainable industry. But that Florida continues to benefit into its future by population growth and all the infrastructure (hospitals, restaurants, transportation, barber shops, etc) associated with that, again, I also don't understand the complaint. The economy would improve better without such growth?

[vaughanwilliams]

What's ironic is the Chamber of Commerce has been at the forefront of pro business and anti labor issues, including any paltry raise in minimum wage. I found it ironic that a CoC big wig would suddenly be concerned with below average wages for the working class. I feel those cost of living comparisons are highly flawed, at best. Sure, housing and taxes are more expensive in NYC, but is the cost of food, medicine, clothing, etc. the same? Does a TV cost less in Florida? I'd be willing to bet a college education is no cheaper for Florida residents than a NYC resident. In NYC I wouldn't necessarily have to own a car. I don't have that option here. Besides, NYC is one of the most expensive places on Earth to live, and isn't a fair comparison.
We need to do more than government giveaways and the promise of cheap labor to entice reputable companies to Florida, but the reality might be that's all Florida has to offer at the moment. We could be so much more.

[housingcrashsurvivor]

Cost of Living differences are very different regionally and very real. Never mind state to state, never mind the vast differences between a metro area like NY or San Fran and Tampa, but just within the state, say, between here and south Florida, the differences in COL are striking.

I notice a difference between food prices when I am here and in Fort Lauderdale, for instance. And that would make sense as land is more expensive there, insurance, etc., so that overheads are more. The differences become even more drastic in places like USVI or Hawaii where just about everything is shipped in.

Medical costs? This is just one example but by relocating from south Florida to Tampa, my insurance premiums decrease by 22% from $450/month to $350/month for the same policy with the same company. The only difference is location and all that adds up to significant differences in the COL between areas.

Thus wages adjust accordingly. If they did not, there would be more money in one area going after the same products, markets would be able to command higher prices because people would be willing to pay more, all that justified only by money supply and so inflation would run rampant. This is one of the big fears today of the government pumping so much money into the economy. Stimulus at a macro level. Wages at a more local level. Same thing, same potential disasterous results.

Just consider the retired people living on a fixed income in Florida. If suddenly every working person made NY wages here, prices would rise beyond the ability of those on a fixed income to be able to pay. So just pumping more money into people's pockets is not a cure all and it can make things worse.

I am not arguing against good wages. I am suggesting balance.

[vaughanwilliams]

A balance would be nice, I agree and I know Florida won't ever have anything close to NY wages, but Florida is what, the fourth most populace state behind CA, NY and TX? It's time we start acting like it and start emulating the more successful,diverse states instead of being in a footrace with Mississippi to see who can have the lowest overhead.

[housingcrashsurvivor]

If it is any comfort to you, Mississippi isn't quite in Florida's league, which is more in line with Alabama per Wiki's 2006 GDP map...




Though per wiki 2008 stats Florida ranks 21st highest in Gross Domestic Product at $39,070 per person, only 2% below the national average & 9% under the 10th placed state of Minnesota. Of course, the top 6 including New York kind of blow us out of the water, but Florida still produces 13% more than Georgia without having anything that approaches Atlanta. Florida's GDP was also 1% greater than Texas, but I guess that would be like comparing oranges & oil.

As to becoming one of the largest states. Don't worry about a thing. If we can't get our GDP up through actual work, once we surpass NY in legislators we'll finally have the votes to draw some of their stimulus money here.

[DoctorRain]

Originally Posted by AlaskaKash

I read the same article and it made me pause. I began thinking, crap....should we continue are move to Tampa? Well, the fact of the matter is I am pretty much past the point of no return at this point, so yeah....we're moving to Tampa.

I believe Florida is going to bottom out soon, once it does it will begin to increase. As HousingCrashSurvivor said, when it's bad Florida gets the brunt of it. When it's good, Florida does great. Call me an optimist, perhaps an idiot. I like to think by 2013 the Tampa area will be doing much better and may even begin to be recognized as one of the best recovering cities in the country. I think Florida will begin to rebound and once again experience growth and it's tourist industry will begin to boom. Remember, there are a lot of people out there who have no been able to take a vacation for many years. Once this economic disaster ends and consumers feel confident I think you will see a great number of people decide they need a vacation and will head to Florida since it is in the country.

As these tourists come, Florida's economy will recover. Once the economy recovers there will be positive articles published regarding Florida's 'New' Financial Health. Many of the tourists that had visited, will read these articles and still be able to find homes at low prices. These individuals will end up relocating in Florida and contribute to the economy. Once the excess housing gets full Florida will begin to boom once again. I think a boom will begin to happen in 2015 or so. I think now is the time to get into position to ride the wave that is coming.

With all of that said. Florida's leaders need to begin positioning the state to become a Company friendly state and begin doing what they can to get some more headquarters (national or regional) into this state. Quite honestly, if it takes large tax breaks for these companies to move here, they should do it. This state needs jobs and these corporations could provide them. Personally, I think they should start courting bio-tech companies.

Again, like I said. I may be an optimist or just an idiot. What I do know is that the economy where I am now will be hurting terribly bad in 5 to 10 years, regardless if the rest of the country is doing well.

Well Kash after all, I may just be meant to move to Tampa then. I feel it can recover quicker than Sarasota. Sarasota is the city Im most worried for since its a different crowd and people like status even more there so they went way in over their heads even more. Tampa is bigger, its modest. I plan to move there and I cant wait! I currently reside in Manatee county and cant wait to leave.
I see Tampa recovering though. It has a bit of potential and although not the weirdest oasis around (like Portland), it sure has potential to get damn good so its good enough for me. NTM their transit right now is not that good, but they are working to improve it so Tampa could eventually be a top place to live for transit but that project may take 10 yrs.

[vaughanwilliams]

2% below the national average. Always below. On so many things. I'd settle for average. Well, I guess I could could look at the glass as half full-at least we're not as bad as Mississippi. That could be our new state motto.

[housingcrashsurvivor]

It also depends on which glass you use. Based upon GDP per capita, Florida is 2% below the national average, but having the 21st highest GDP out of 50 states puts Florida at 16% points above the median as measured by placement alone (21st place as compared to being in 25th place out of 50 states). Or, when looking at the actual GDP, Florida's is 4% greater than the state holding that middle ground.

Being below national average does not imply that there are that many more states doing that much better, but rather that the extremes throw off the curve.

reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...apita_(nominal)

Or perhaps you'd prefer to look through international glasses. In which case, the state of Florida's GDP is still greater than all of the countries of Turkey by 17%, of (made in) Taiwan by 48% and of Singapore by 78%.

reference: Comparison between U.S. states and countries nominal GDP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[vaughanwilliams]

I'm blinded by the amount of numbers in the links. Somehow I get a feeling these numbers are kind of skewed-for example, D.C. is number 1 in GDP. Don't you think their ranking is due primarily to government spending? I don't believe D.C. exports many durable goods. And if I remember right, the GDP isn't necessarily a great measure of the citizens standard of living, for instance, the 2008 chart. A substantial part of 2008's GDP probably came from hurricane repairs.
I'm no economist and I tip my hat to you for the research on the GDP. Besides, I'm leaving in a few years and won't be affected by Florida's yo-yo economy. I do like a good debate, though.

[kbrkr]

You can analyze the number until your blue in the face. The bottom line is Florida offers some of the highest "quality of life" in the US. Sure there is Governmental dysfunction, unemployment, housing issues, economic instability, etc. etc., but at the end of the day you have a higher quality of life than most US residents.

I came from New York; the state Government in New York is corrupt, dysfunctional and stagnant, highest taxes in the country, poor quality of life, cold NE weather, etc. It prompted the creation of this website: New Yorkers share their stories: | Enough Already NY.

Be thankful and content with where you live and make a concerted effort to Improve and take pride in the state where you live. I understand all the farts and warts Florida has and I'm willing to put up with it and do my very best to help make Florida a better place.

Al