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Old 06-19-2010, 07:04 AM
 
42 posts, read 79,567 times
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Find another country that is required by federal law to educate ALL students, including those that can't feed themselves, clothe themselves, etc. No other country in the world pays for these expenses out of individual school district budgets. I think you would find that if you took out the special education budgets that US schools probably spend LESS per student then most countries.
What on earth are you talking about? I can tell you even orphans go to school in South Korea (public schools) and are clothed, fed, etc. (I volunteer at the local orphanage. It's a way sad system for other reasons I won't get into.) But they go to school. SPED kids aren't treated so well here, but they go to school, too. They might not get the HS diploma because there is no alt-diploma like in the U.S. and you have to take tests to graduate. (The SPED program is horrid compared to the U.S. . . . because it's not really a program at all, and they totally don't get 'diversity'.)

In Japan, I hear they're actually doing better with SPED kids these days, I hear. There is still WAY more stigma than in the Western world. As far as Western countries (Canada, UK, Australia, NZ), I know SPED teachers from those countries who seem to be up on their stuff so far as I know (not a SPED teacher myself, unless you could ESL or remedial reading) and, from everything I've read, they have much the same social issues we do. . . I'm not sure where your data comes from. Unless what you were talking about was the funding structure.

Now you're right that it's not "individual school budgets" -- one issue with U.S. education (or one issue, I think) is the way it's funded. Most countries fund education federally or by state/province, rather than by individual district.

Most (all?) wealthy countries have public schools. Many in the EU even fully fund higher education if students are qualified to get in. I'm not sure which countries require PS by federal law, but state law is about the same in most places. Most places AREN'T all state vs. federal like we are. I've found other Westerners don't get our whole "loose collection of states" thing on average.

Last edited by halfwaygone; 06-19-2010 at 07:19 AM..
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,398,027 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Find another country that is required by federal law to educate ALL students, including those that can't feed themselves, clothe themselves, etc. No other country in the world pays for these expenses out of individual school district budgets. I think you would find that if you took out the special education budgets that US schools probably spend LESS per student then most countries.



If a child grows up in a home where the parents don't care if they got to school, do their homework, get descent grades, they aren't going to do well in school, therefore, the parents have set the standard for what they expect, which is nothing. Did you not care if your kids went to school, got good grades, etc? How many parent/teacher conferences did you attend?

We still expect our kids to be the ones to talk to teachers about problems, we certainly don't do any homework for our kids, etc. but we DO expect that they go to school, get good grades and go to college and as a result, they do well in school. Had we not cared, I know our oldest at least would have flunked out of school long ago and certainly would not be heading off to college. Our other two would probably just slid by doing just enough to pass.
I agree with your first paragraph.

Of course I cared about my kids doing well in school. I'm just tired of statements like "it's all the fault of the parents", etc, etc, that one sees every day on this forum. It seems to be an occupational hazard of teachers, even those that have kids. I work in a pediatric office. Our boss would not tolerate us talking about parents like that. Every now and then he says, "You just have to remember that all parents love their kids; they just don't always see things our way." It's a good reality check. Would anyone want to take their kid to a doctor's office where the staff felt the parents were all inept, uncaring, etc?
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:11 AM
 
42 posts, read 79,567 times
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Wanted to add. . . I can say I don't think it's all the fault of the parents by ANY means, but spend a little time in a country like South Korea or Japan (where parents push their kids hard and being smart is "cool" -- really, the kids earnestly compete for test scores and popularity is tied to high ones A LOT) and you'll see how both families and culture play a big role in it. There's a culture of dumb in America (don't be TOO smart -- that's not cool, you're looking "down" on me, you're not one of us, etc) that infects the attitudes of some kids and families much more so than I see where I am now. Here, where there's a fair amount of wealth, most of it first-generation wealth earned through education, and additional education is seen as a great investment, there's a lot more value in smart. Also, families just take better care of each other. It's why there's less homelessness (most folks are taken in by family), more nepotism (WAY more, if you can believe it), and a higher percentage of salaries spent on kids on average. I'm not saying they have the right idea on how to raise kids (plenty of different issues) and we have the wrong ideas, but ours make school quite a bit more difficult.
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:21 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 61,155,372 times
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Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I agree with your first paragraph.

Of course I cared about my kids doing well in school. I'm just tired of statements like "it's all the fault of the parents", etc, etc, that one sees every day on this forum. It seems to be an occupational hazard of teachers, even those that have kids. I work in a pediatric office. Our boss would not tolerate us talking about parents like that. Every now and then he says, "You just have to remember that all parents love their kids; they just don't always see things our way." It's a good reality check. Would anyone want to take their kid to a doctor's office where the staff felt the parents were all inept, uncaring, etc?
The ones making those comments here generally are not teachers but parents that see things from the outside. Quite honestly, I really do think there are a lot of parents that DON'T love their kids and they see their kids as a burden--they are the ones making comments like "why should I read to them at home, that's your job". How about the kids that come to school and the only meal they get is whatever they get at school. There are a lot of parents out there that can't even tell you the name of their kid's teacher. Then schools are expected to perform miracles with these kids and their jobs are on the line if these kids don't pass all the required tests. If a parent doesn't finish a round of antibiotics the dr prescribed, would you lose your job?
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Lincoln County Road or Armageddon
4,983 posts, read 7,180,814 times
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Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
The education system has morphed itself into being like the Special Olympics where everyone is a winner, everyone goes to college, everyone is smart. In doing that they've had to dumb down the standards so that the lowest is the goal that can be achievable by all.

I hope one day the think tank that controls all this wake up and realize that some kids are smarter than others. There doesn't have to be one single bar or one single goal to get all these kids into college.

What was wrong with placement tests and kids put in the appropriate class based on those results..social stigma perhaps ? Just seems to me if you put all the higher achieving kids in one class then you have the opportunity to go beyond the normal curriculum and really challenge them while the lower achieving kids all placed in another class can get extra help while not holding back the rest of the class.

But I guess the simple solution is not PC in this day and age.
Yes, let's make the creation of a permanent underclass official. Your idea would lead to pay offs and corruption-no wealthy and connected parent would ever stand for their underachieving, troubled child to be shuttled into a life of remedial classes. Ivy League colleges are full of dopes who got in strictly because their parents were politically connected.
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,398,027 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
The ones making those comments here generally are not teachers but parents that see things from the outside. Quite honestly, I really do think there are a lot of parents that DON'T love their kids and they see their kids as a burden--they are the ones making comments like "why should I read to them at home, that's your job". How about the kids that come to school and the only meal they get is whatever they get at school. There are a lot of parents out there that can't even tell you the name of their kid's teacher. Then schools are expected to perform miracles with these kids and their jobs are on the line if these kids don't pass all the required tests. If a parent doesn't finish a round of antibiotics the dr prescribed, would you lose your job?
To answer your question at the end, "No". However, I might lose my job for giving the wrong dose of antibiotics. As someone pointed out upthread, every profession has ways to evaluate its workers. I can't tell you what that is for teaching; I'm not a teacher. I could tell you what that is for nursing, b/c I've done evaluations, but that's not the topic of this thread.
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:55 AM
 
9,803 posts, read 16,138,248 times
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Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I agree with your first paragraph.

Of course I cared about my kids doing well in school. I'm just tired of statements like "it's all the fault of the parents", etc, etc, that one sees every day on this forum. It seems to be an occupational hazard of teachers, even those that have kids. I work in a pediatric office. Our boss would not tolerate us talking about parents like that. Every now and then he says, "You just have to remember that all parents love their kids; they just don't always see things our way." It's a good reality check. Would anyone want to take their kid to a doctor's office where the staff felt the parents were all inept, uncaring, etc?

----You just have to remember that all parents love their kids ;they just don't always see things our way------

Here is 2 personal examples of classmates of my daughters( their parents)

My daughter ( while in jr high) loaned a book to a boy and needed it back ( he hadn't been in school for a few days)

She called his home and his father answered and said his jr high son wasn't there. When my daughter inquired if he would be in school Monday , he replied-------" I don't know and I don't give a damn "

( the boy dropped out of school his sophmore year)


Another neighbor of mine always bragged about his son.
Always bragging about how many kids at school his son smashed in the face and " knocked them on their ass"
( that boy got his name constantly in the local paper's court reports from age 18-40. Lot of assault charges)

This wasn't in the ghettos but in rural America.


Yup, I guess they just loved their kids and saw things differently than me.--sarc
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Old 06-19-2010, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,398,027 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by marmac View Post
----You just have to remember that all parents love their kids ;they just don't always see things our way------

Here is 2 personal examples of classmates of my daughters( their parents)

My daughter ( while in jr high) loaned a book to a boy and needed it back ( he hadn't been in school for a few days)

She called his home and his father answered and said his jr high son wasn't there. When my daughter inquired if he would be in school Monday , he replied-------" I don't know and I don't give a damn "

( the boy dropped out of school his sophmore year)


Another neighbor of mine always bragged about his son.
Always bragging about how many kids at school his son smashed in the face and " knocked them on their ass"
( that boy got his name constantly in the local paper's court reports from age 18-40. Lot of assault charges)

This wasn't in the ghettos but in rural America.


Yup, I guess they just loved their kids and saw things differently than me.--sarc
WEll, that certainly proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're right and I'm wrong.

In re: the second "example", have you ever read any of the bullying threads on this board? Lots of parents encourage that behavior.

In the first ex, it's possible the father was tired, having a bad day, etc, and spoke to his son afterwards. Why didn't your daughter call the guy herself? Lending stuff out is not a good idea; my kids have learned these things the hard way.
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Old 06-19-2010, 09:18 AM
 
8,857 posts, read 5,336,857 times
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Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Ok, and who becomes the custodial parent if not the state?
The state would be the custodian of last resort.

Who knows, some of the sorry excuses for parents described here might straighten up their acts if they saw we were actually serious about education.
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Old 06-19-2010, 09:22 AM
 
9,803 posts, read 16,138,248 times
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----"it's possible the father was tired"---

but it's a fact that son dropped out of high school his sophmore year

( very few dropouts in our small rural school district)

I doubt the dad was concerned if he dropped out or he attended.
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