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Well, lots of responses to my post. That's a good thing; it stimulated discussion.
I have a few points to make/clarify, and I'm going to do it w/o a lot of cutting and pasting, as that's very time consuming, and we have some plans on this nice Father's Day.
I do not think the objective of American education, or any country's education, should be to get the highest test scores. My kids' high school does allow anyone to take an AP course if they wish. If this can be done in cash-strapped Colorado, which even in the best of times is way down on the list of states for money spent on education, it can be done other places.
My information about England came from a friend from England who now works in education in the US. She says everyone is now eleibgilve to take the tests to get into college; it used to be a chosen few. So the tracking level has moved up a bit. Also, I did not say "England has the same system as us"; I said it's moving more towards our system.
Maybe some of you work in Ivory Towers, but many of us work with the "great unwashed masses" (that is sarcasm) despite the fact that we have college educations. If you work in health care, you will work with people who have an MD + several years education beyond that in their field, all the way to CNAs, who may not have even graduated from high school. A poor performance by anyone down the line will impact the work of the others. If you work in public education, you will likely work with Teacher's Aides, parapros, whatever you want to call them, who may have no education beyond high school. If you work in engineering, your group may be similar to DH's, where some have PhDs, and some didn't even finish college. I'm not ignoring any harsh reality, and I'll posit that I've seen plenty of life's harsh realities.
I never heard of a high school, not in the steel mill town where I started HS in 1963, or the suburban HS where my youngest started in 2001, to have any requirements for taking the "college prep" track. As someone said, it's much harder to move up to college prep than to move down (see the inference in moving down?) Any student who graduates 8th grade should be able to do high school freshman CP work, e.g. algebra and a foreign language in 9th grade. 9th grade physical science is required for all students in my district, though some do have the option of taking it in 8th and starting in biology in 9th. My kids' school had advisors who helped kids choose the correct courses for college prep; if you followed their advice you took the courses that satisfy the entrance requirements for the University of Colorado.
I never heard of a high school, not in the steel mill town where I started HS in 1963, or the suburban HS where my youngest started in 2001, to have any requirements for taking the "college prep" track.
Just because you have not heard of them does not mean they do not exist. At all three schools I have worked at, as well as the one my daughter attends, there absolutely are requirements for CP courses. State test scores and middle school grades are the main criteria. As a matter of fact the same can be said for the majority of public schools in my state, NJ.
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As someone said, it's much harder to move up to college prep than to move down (see the inference in moving down?) Any student who graduates 8th grade should be able to do high school freshman CP work,
What? Are you actually saying that every student who makes it out of middle school is capable of doing college preparatory work? Work that is specifically supposed to be geared towards the rigor of college level classes?
Even if that student is at best an average student in middle school? Seriously?
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e.g. algebra and a foreign language in 9th grade. 9th grade physical science is required for all students in my district, though some do have the option of taking it in 8th and starting in biology in 9th. My kids' school had advisors who helped kids choose the correct courses for college prep; if you followed their advice you took the courses that satisfy the entrance requirements for the University of Colorado.
You talk about ivory towers as if those of us who actually are teachers do not see these kids first hand. At a prior school I had one particular student who could not grasp abstract concepts at all like the ones you would find in Algebra or Chemistry but he could take apart and put back together any engine without instructions. He would have failed any CP math or science class.
I also had a few students each year who where in Honors Bio who where there only because they were not behavior problems. When I started teaching at an actual honors level they began to fail and their parents just could not understand that their kids were not smart enough to do AP/Honors level work. Should I have slowed the class down enough that they could pass since they were nice kids even if it meant that "honors" no longer had any meaning?
I do not think the objective of American education, or any country's education, should be to get the highest test scores.
Me neither, but when they’re linked to GDP in significant studies, I can’t ignore that test scores can be predictors of success – both in school and for a nation. Stating it as a goal and using it as data are not the same things. I also don’t think it’s terrible to have testing built into the system. Regardless of whether you believe we should have testing built in or not. . . we do. I highly doubt that’ll go away. The issue is if we are going to use it well or poorly.
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My information about England came from a friend from England who now works in education in the US. She says everyone is now eleibgilve to take the tests to get into college; it used to be a chosen few. So the tracking level has moved up a bit.
Her information is right about the eligibility of the test, but there’s no sign English schools are changing structure or that this change (which isn’t terribly recent) is indicative any desire to do so. It’s likely more about how higher education expands as a business than anything else. The kids who are going to get to the traditional colleges are still going through the traditional channels. It's the equivalent of having open-admission to the SAT. . . it doesn't really impact what the school system is doing.
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Maybe some of you work in Ivory Towers, but many of us work with the "great unwashed masses" (that is sarcasm) despite the fact that we have college educations. If you work in health care, you will work with people who have an MD + several years education beyond that in their field, all the way to CNAs, who may not have even graduated from high school. A poor performance by anyone down the line will impact the work of the others. If you work in public education, you will likely work with Teacher's Aides, parapros, whatever you want to call them, who may have no education beyond high school. If you work in engineering, your group may be similar to DH's, where some have PhDs, and some didn't even finish college. I'm not ignoring any harsh reality, and I'll posit that I've seen plenty of life's harsh realities.
Presumably, those people aren’t doing the same work (unless it’s a temp gig for the person with higher education or you’re factoring older employees who have proven their value to a company and came in before the college degree was a mandated requirement).
My point about how tracking affected my high school wasn’t to say “It’s better to keep the smart kids away from your so-called “unwashed masses” – it was to say that this is being done anyway at schools that track kids (which are the only secondary schools where meaningful learning is happening). I’m actually not ALL that worried about the smart kids. Even when we fail them, they still succeed despite us. It’s the kids who need/would prefer vocational programs and remedial education that would be best served by schools that cater to their needs.
We don’t have teachers’ aides back in the state where I taught, but certainly we had people without degrees: janitors, cafeteria workers, etc. The fact is: They couldn’t do my job. (I suppose I could clean the floors, but why would I have a college degree and get a masters degree if that's what I wanted to do? Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with cleaning the floors -- someone has to!) Whether it is training, choices, or aptitude, they couldn’t do mine. Just like some kids can’t do the same job as others. And some kids don't want to! Should all people at a school be shifted through teaching, administration, janitorial, cafeteria, secretarial, and bus driving jobs? Should all teachers be shifted between subjects even? It doesn’t make the higher kids “better” (as people) but it does mean they have different educational needs, as do the lower and mainstream students that could be served by creating programs that suit them better.
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I never heard of a high school, not in the steel mill town where I started HS in 1963, or the suburban HS where my youngest started in 2001, to have any requirements for taking the "college prep" track.
Until recently (last 10-15 years), it is unlikely they had testing requirements, but I am very surprised if they didn’t have GPA and prerequisite requirements, as well as – depending on the size and availability. Granted, schools have mainstream college prep tracks and then they have the Honors/AP/IB/Gifted tracks. At my school, the mainstream college prep track was, of course, open to anyone with a C-average (or even lower with an appeal packet describing why) and a desire to be a part of it. . . as it would be with the 3 school system I suggested. That track is equivalent to the 2nd – or Mainstream – school, which would be open to anyone. Giving kids an OPTION for vocational training isn’t taking away their option for college.
What is an Honors class or an AP class if anyone can do it? The fact is they exist because all kids can't do the work in them.
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As someone said, it's much harder to move up to college prep than to move down (see the inference in moving down?) Any student who graduates 8th grade should be able to do high school freshman CP work, e.g. algebra and a foreign language in 9th grade.
That’s not true for a variety of reasons. When I taught 10th grade English, the average reading level of the students in my class was between a 5th and 7th grade level when we started. (I actually really liked this job and enjoyed working with most of these kids.) Now some of those kids had been failed by the system earlier, some had been failed by their parents, many had failed themselves, and certainly all of them could have been reading at grade level (for this course) if every year of their schooling had been perfect – a big IF – as in, they had the “potential” with perfect circumstances and strong desires (neither of which most had) but many/most did not have the potential or temperament for Honors classes, even at best case. That doesn't mean many weren't awesome human beings who will go on to live productive lives.
I’m not being dismissive in saying that; I’m seeing them for who they are. Many of them had their own gifts and interests, which I tried to cultivate, along with raising their levels/scores as much as possible. But all kids aren’t the same. They just aren’t. It sounds “Fair” to treat all kids the same, but they aren’t. Telling them they ALL needed to go to college (I expect some will eventually, but through other channels than the right-after-HS-graduation) would have been woefully out of touch and professionally irresponsible.
Just because you have not heard of them does not mean they do not exist. At all three schools I have worked at, as well as the one my daughter attends, there absolutely are requirements for CP courses. State test scores and middle school grades are the main criteria. As a matter of fact the same can be said for the majority of public schools in my state, NJ.
Fine.
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What? Are you actually saying that every student who makes it out of middle school is capable of doing college preparatory work? Work that is specifically supposed to be geared towards the rigor of college level classes?
Even if that student is at best an average student in middle school? Seriously?
Q2 (after What?) Yes, I think every student who makes it out of middle school is capable of doing college prep work if you define that as taking freshman required courses (LA, social studies, physical science) and algebra for the required math course. 8th grade math is supposed to be pre-algebra.
High school work is not college level work. I'm not talking about AP classes.
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You talk about ivory towers as if those of us who actually are teachers do not see these kids first hand. At a prior school I had one particular student who could not grasp abstract concepts at all like the ones you would find in Algebra or Chemistry but he could take apart and put back together any engine without instructions. He would have failed any CP math or science class.
My reference to ivory towers was geared, if you had understood my post, to people who claim that workers of different ability levels don't mix in "the real world", to wit:
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Just to play devil's advocate, no you do not. When I worked in research most of the people I interacted with on a daily basis where pretty far above average just due to the nature of the field. There are likely many other examples of this as well.
and:
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You are SO right. You do not work with people from all walks of life in the real world. Yes, you interact with them but you don't always work with them.
This is not true in most jobs. I discussed this issue with DH after I posted earlier today. He said even in grad school, his group had to work with machinists, etc. I already gave some examples from health care and education.
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I also had a few students each year who where in Honors Bio who where there only because they were not behavior problems. When I started teaching at an actual honors level they began to fail and their parents just could not understand that their kids were not smart enough to do AP/Honors level work. Should I have slowed the class down enough that they could pass since they were nice kids even if it meant that "honors" no longer had any meaning?
Why is it fair to base teacher compensation on student performance when the students themselves have no stake in the outcome? Maybe we should revisit this issue when students aren't "socially promoted" to the next higher grade and are forced to attend summer school if they do not pass a subject during the school year.
And how many proponents of basing teacher pay on student perfomance have stopped to think what the result will be when a teacher must earn enough to pay their bills? Think maybe further dumbing down of the tests or grading on HUGE curves might become the norm??? I listen to talking heads whose only educational background comes from sitting in a student desk and some of the ideas they come up with have merit. But some will not staqnd up to scrutiny when you examine ALL of the facts.
Last edited by Crew Chief; 06-21-2010 at 01:15 PM..
Any student who graduates 8th grade should be able to do high school freshman CP work, e.g. algebra and a foreign language in 9th grade. 9th grade physical science is required for all students in my district, though some do have the option of taking it in 8th and starting in biology in 9th. My kids' school had advisors who helped kids choose the correct courses for college prep; if you followed their advice you took the courses that satisfy the entrance requirements for the University of Colorado.
This isn't even remotely close to true. There are MANY kids that pass 8th grade that are not capable of doing college prep work, they were not doing advanced classes in middle school either. Around here the advanced track kids take geometry in 9th grade and are taking AP classes in 10th grade, there are a lot of kids that can't handle that work yet or ever. Our district requirements more than satisfy entrance to ANY college so as long as the kids take the required courses, there are no worries about that.
Q2 (after What?) Yes, I think every student who makes it out of middle school is capable of doing college prep work if you define that as taking freshman required courses (LA, social studies, physical science) and algebra for the required math course. 8th grade math is supposed to be pre-algebra.
What you are talking about is Gen Ed NOT college prep, those definitions are separate and distinct. Most kids who come out of 8th grade will be able to handle gen ed course, but still not all. There are plenty of kids who top out before high school. Maybe you should read up about concrete and abstract thinking but a certain proportion of people never make it out of the concrete phase.
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High school work is not college level work. I'm not talking about AP classes.
You claimed you were talking about college prep classes. College prep has difficultly above and beyond general education classes because its supposed to prepare students for college level difficulty.
My reference to ivory towers was geared, if you had understood my post, to people who claim that workers of different ability levels don't mix in "the real world", to wit:
This is not true in most jobs. I discussed this issue with DH after I posted earlier today. He said even in grad school, his group had to work with machinists, etc. I already gave some examples from health care and education.[/quote]
Then you define working WITH someone differently than I do. I do not work with the janitors in my building since we do not collaborate or engage in any actual work activity together but I do work with the other teachers. Additionally all of the aides in my school muse have degrees, maybe that is a state requirement.
My mother works for Sun micro, she also never "works" with people who do not hold similar degrees. I am sure for every anecdotal story you give we can give another where that is not the case. Regardless, it isn't about keeping students separated its about making sure everyone is challenged and set up to succeed. For some children that is a gen ed class.
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No. What is your point?
My point is that if you are not enforcing requirements for levels of difficulty you are setting children up to fail. If you put gen ed kids in college prep courses you are creating a situation where they will become incredibly discouraged.
There is already a shortage of foster homes for the children whose parents abuse them or neglect them to the point of being dangerous. The department of social services tries to keep children with their parents until (often after) the conditions deteriorate to the point where the children's lives are at stake.
What do you suggest we do with such children? I've recommended orphanages or children's homes be re-introduced. Not only would the children at least be in a structured environment where they would be on a regular schedule with proper mealtimes, but the negligent parents would lose the money that acts as an incentive to keep having such children.
I've been at the same school for 17 years now. There were 169 students who passed through my classes last year, though I ended the year with only 125. These students were responsible for bringing 22 children into this world. Four of them had two children each. So far. That I know of.
It's a daunting situation.
It is the norm in the inner city for girls to become pregnant--the older ones by their boyfriends, the younger ones by older predatory men, often their mothers' boyfriends. It is the norm for the "baby daddies" to have more than one "baby mama". It is the norm to be on government aid for food, housing, medical care, child care, and now cell phones. Some families try to get their children to act out at school so that they can get a "crazy check", the name for SSI, which can bring in around $500 per child. Life is not so unbearable when you have several thousand dollars coming in each month with all necessary living expenses paid.
My question is at what age is a child supposed to realize that this is a bad way of life and begin focussing on getting a good education so that he/she can leave his family behind? Five? Nine? Thirteen? Then the girl gets pregnant at fourteen or fifteen and the cycle starts again. The boy gets in trouble with the authorities and the cycle starts again. To break away from the norm is much more difficult and less rewarding than to go with the flow.
Most problems in American schools originate in social problems. For the last fifty years, our society has tried to redefine them as school problems. In the inner city, that has been three generations. The problems did not begin in the schools, and they cannot be solved by the schools.
But schools do make a great scapegoat.
AWESOME!!! so true. You have to break the cycle in order for it to change!
Then you define working WITH someone differently than I do. I do not work with the janitors in my building since we do not collaborate or engage in any actual work activity together but I do work with the other teachers. Additionally all of the aides in my school muse have degrees, maybe that is a state requirement.
My mother works for Sun micro, she also never "works" with people who do not hold similar degrees. I am sure for every anecdotal story you give we can give another where that is not the case. Regardless, it isn't about keeping students separated its about making sure everyone is challenged and set up to succeed. For some children that is a gen ed class.
Well, in health care, we do collaborate and actually work together with CNAs, LPNs, RNs, MDs, and so on. I have directly supervised LPNs, CNAs, clerical staff and so forth.
DH worked for a small company for about 15 years. He has a PhD. He worked closely with people with BS, and no degrees.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 06-21-2010 at 06:43 PM..
This isn't even remotely close to true. There are MANY kids that pass 8th grade that are not capable of doing college prep work, they were not doing advanced classes in middle school either. Around here the advanced track kids take geometry in 9th grade and are taking AP classes in 10th grade, there are a lot of kids that can't handle that work yet or ever. Our district requirements more than satisfy entrance to ANY college so as long as the kids take the required courses, there are no worries about that.
So what? Have you never heard of a late bloomer. What's with all this talk about the advanced track? One does not have to take geometry in 9th grade (though my kids did) or AP classes in 10th, to go to college.
One of the problems with the internet is that your thoughts can be misunderstood, either deliberately or accidentally. For example, when I said a school down the road that serves low-income students, I meant that it was a school with a lot of students that you guys would put in the bottom rung of society. I looked it up on GreatSchools (which I think is a crock) and it has a rating of 5. Yet its graduates have gone to Ivy League schools, and many other highly ranked schools.
As to the bold, that was a twisting of what I said as well. The college prep curriculum of my kids' high school does pretty much mirror what the University of Colorado requires. Why shouldn't it, when CU is the flagship university in this state, a state that has a very small private school system. Of course following these guidelines will get you in to most other colleges as well. I already said that students from my kids' school have gone to many highly ranked colleges.
I seriously doubt that the graduation requirements at your school, as opposed to the college prep guidelines will get a student into any school anywhere.
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