Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Transfer him to a different class. The change can't hurt. Also tell the principal what the teacher is doing and ask him to interview other students in the class to see if this is their perception.
A teacher who quizzes students on material not yet learned is one of those sad few who think they need to build their self-esteem by "proving" they know more than the student. I had only one in my college career, and that teacher (luckily only an adjunct) was fired after that semester, when all the students pointed out the same problem.
I'm not sure the teacher is 100% to blame here. I need to get to the bottom of what is going on before I make any crazy accusations against a teacher. I personally see NO VALUE in testing things that have not been taught (there are other ways of finding out whether the students have read the material besides having them take a quiz).
I disagree. There is nothing wrong with reading quizzes. It's a good way to make sure kids actually read the material.
How do you propose the teacher insure kids actually do the reading? My experience with reading quizzes is that they are basic and easy to pass if you actually did the reading. I haven't used them yet but I've toyed with the idea. I'm using reading notes now. My students have to get their notes checked off the day they are due for full credit. They can still do them late for half credit but it's a good chunk of their homework grade.
I don't like these sort of quizzes. What if they read the material but they don't understand it? Isn't it your job to clarify that information and ensure that they do understand it?
Grades should reflect what a student achieves in a class. They should be permitted to not understand something and then master it prior to being assessed for a grade. A teacher's grade is to teach the material. Quizzing kids on material not yet taught in class just seems silly to me. Especially in classes like Science.
Pardon me if I am misreading this communication, but in what way do you not find it valid to have a pop quiz over material students were supposed to have read?
As an educator I would NEVER test student on material I had asked them to read but did not teach in class. Not as a parent, as a teacher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace
This is a time-honored method of ensuring students have read the material. Usually quizzes of this nature test superficial-level reading, e.g., "What was the name of Holden Caulfield's sister?" -- that is, questions which do NOT require any teaching or in-depth discussion to answer. Not having seen your child's quiz, I obviously cannot speak to the difficulty level of the questions; however, I find no fault whatsoever in giving a pop quiz over the material assigned over the weekend. In fact, I am surprised at your surprise.
It may be time honored but what is the point of it? We do not get to see the quizzes as they are not sent home. I will be able to see it when I meet with the teacher. According to my son the quizzes are on minutia. I don't really know if that is true or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace
Secondly, I am concerned about the fact that you are apparently relying not on any objective data, but on your son's word alone. Would it not be more appropriate -- certainly before you (potentially) embarrass yourself in a conference to see the study guide, see the test, and compare whether or not students are truly being tested on different material? Again, just to be obvious, since I have seen neither the study guide nor the test, I cannot be sure -- but like Reagan, I believe one should "trust, but verify." At the very least, ensure you have your facts straight and see both the study guide and test.
We do not get copies of the tests. I don't see why you think I would embarrass myself. I am not accusing anyone of anything. I just want to meet with the teacher to see if we can help my son be more successful in his class.
The point of this post is to see what is common practice. Apparently there are lots of teachers out there who see some value in testing material not yet taught. I see no value, but I see no value in much of what passes for education. That is why I am not teaching any more.
I also don't understand why you think I should not take my son at his word. He is having trouble with this class. He has not had trouble in any other class he has taken so far at the high school level. He has not given me any reason NOT to trust him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace
Frankly, I think students should be grateful if teachers provide them any kind of study guide, particularly since I believe it should logically be the students' responsibility to prepare their own study guides.
I agree. When I taught I did not use study guides. I think it is a student responsibility to prepare study materials. But if one is given it should be useful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace
Quite honestly, I do not believe you have a sufficient reason to be upset. It sounds like your son, from what you are describing, has average abilities in English. Not surprisingly, he is getting an average grade in English. Particularly now that he has advanced to junior year, this is where a great deal of "fluff grades" almost inevitably disappear as students encounter college-preparatory texts and work. When students' grades are no longer inflated by essentially meaningless projects or under-challenging material, they tend to drop.
You know the real people you should direct your anger toward? His freshman and sophomore teachers.
I am not upset or angry. Something is going on in this class and I am committed to help my son be more successful in it but I am not angry at anyone and I am not upset with my son. I am trying to gather as much information as I can but I have no intention of going in and screaming at this teacher. That won't solve my son's problem.
My son is taking 6 classes.
Honors English (C)
Honors Spanish (A)
Honors Precalculus (A)
Honors Constitutional Law (A)
AP Chemistry (A)
AP American History (A)
I doubt he's just unable to succeed in this class. He was recommended for AP English by last year's teacher but he decided he did not want to take 3 AP classes in one year.
Particularly in honors classes, students in almost any subject need to go beyond memorization. Specifically, they need to synthesize and apply the information. Here's a concrete representation of the difference.
Easy class question:
1. Define "metaphor."
Regular class question:
1. Is the figure of speech in the following line a metaphor or a simile? Explain your reasoning in a brief sentence with examples.
Honors class question:
1. Identify any figures of speech in the following poem and discuss the ways in which those figures of speech explore or dramatize the author's central theme.
In short, I can provide a study guide for the first two questions... but only someone with a deep understanding of the subject matter can answer the third question. That's the difference between "honors student" and "hard worker." Very often, hard workers find that they've hit the wall around junior year for precisely this reason: hard work won't help you much beyond question #2. Obviously, you won't get to question #3 without the hard work too...but it's not enough all by itself.
Right but you need to teach the content (figure of speech, metaphor, simile) before you can test the students at all. Even the brightest students won' just know what these things are.
I don't believe everything he says but he is a very good student and he usually studies every night after football practice for a pretty long time. Plus he does schoolwork for much of the day on Sunday. I find it difficult to believe that he would study for 5 classes and not the other.
It's not like he stopped studying for all his classes or that his overall performance in school has gone way down. He is taking 2 AP and 4 Honors classes and he has 5 As and a C. Something is not right in this class. I am not saying it's the teacher's fault but something is not right.
I do not see the value in testing something that was not taught in class.
Well, he better not go to college then because most good college professors actually expect kids to read their textbooks and learn material in those that is not taught in class. He is a junior in high school. He should be fully capable of reading a book over the weekend and having a quiz on it on Monday. This is not something new or strange. We did this when I was in high school even.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear
NOT TRUE. Many college professors publish study guides. I don't think anyone owes it to their students to use one (his Chemistry teacher does not) but if there is one it should be useful to students. When I taught I did not use study guides. My students had to use their notes and books to study for tests.
Then why are you all worked up that not all of the test material was on the study guide?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear
As an educator I would NEVER test student on material I had asked them to read but did not teach in class. Not as a parent, as a teacher.
It may be time honored but what is the point of it? We do not get to see the quizzes as they are not sent home. I will be able to see it when I meet with the teacher. According to my son the quizzes are on minutia. I don't really know if that is true or not.
We do not get copies of the tests. I don't see why you think I would embarrass myself. I am not accusing anyone of anything. I just want to meet with the teacher to see if we can help my son be more successful in his class.
The point of this post is to see what is common practice. Apparently there are lots of teachers out there who see some value in testing material not yet taught. I see no value, but I see no value in much of what passes for education. That is why I am not teaching any more.
I also don't understand why you think I should not take my son at his word. He is having trouble with this class. He has not had trouble in any other class he has taken so far at the high school level. He has not given me any reason NOT to trust him.
I agree. When I taught I did not use study guides. I think it is a student responsibility to prepare study materials. But if one is given it should be useful.
I am not upset or angry. Something is going on in this class and I am committed to help my son be more successful in it but I am not angry at anyone and I am not upset with my son. I am trying to gather as much information as I can but I have no intention of going in and screaming at this teacher. That won't solve my son's problem.
My son is taking 6 classes.
Honors English (C)
Honors Spanish (A)
Honors Precalculus (A)
Honors Constitutional Law (A)
AP Chemistry (A)
AP American History (A)
I doubt he's just unable to succeed in this class. He was recommended for AP English by last year's teacher but he decided he did not want to take 3 AP classes in one year.
Some teachers are just harder then others and he may very well just not be doing well in this class. Just because he is studying a lot doesn't mean he is absorbing the material.
I do think if you go into the teacher and start complaining about them taking quizzes on material that they were assigned to read over a weekend that you will embarrass yourself. Again, we are talking about juniors in high school in AP/honors classes. They SHOULD be able to read a book over a weekend and take a quiz without it being "taught" in class. Are you expecting the teacher to read the book outloud to the kids?
Well, he better not go to college then because most good college professors actually expect kids to read their textbooks and learn material in those that is not taught in class. He is a junior in high school. He should be fully capable of reading a book over the weekend and having a quiz on it on Monday. This is not something new or strange. We did this when I was in high school even.
I have never had a college professor give a pop quiz. I have 2 bachelors degrees and a masters degree. I don't understand pop quizzes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal
Then why are you all worked up that not all of the test material was on the study guide?
I am not "worked up" over anything. Not every comment means someone is "worked up".
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal
Some teachers are just harder then others and he may very well just not be doing well in this class. Just because he is studying a lot doesn't mean he is absorbing the material.
Exactly. That's why I need to go talk to the teacher. He thinks he is doing what he should be doing but it is not working for him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal
I do think if you go into the teacher and start complaining about them taking quizzes on material that they were assigned to read over a weekend that you will embarrass yourself.
I am not complaining about anything. I am trying to gather information about common practice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal
Again, we are talking about juniors in high school in AP/honors classes. They SHOULD be able to read a book over a weekend and take a quiz without it being "taught" in class. Are you expecting the teacher to read the book outloud to the kids?
I don't think that literature is something that can be learned JUST by reading the book. The important concepts in literature need to be taught. I don't think that the typical Jr. in high school (even in an honors class) can teach himself the literary concepts in a novel without any instruction. In other advanced classes my son is taking there are no quizzes on minutia. The quizzes are on the substance of the class and are given AFTER the material has been taught.
I have never had a college professor give a pop quiz. I have 2 bachelors degrees and a masters degree. I don't understand pop quizzes.
I am not "worked up" over anything. Not every comment means someone is "worked up".
Exactly. That's why I need to go talk to the teacher. He thinks he is doing what he should be doing but it is not working for him.
I am not complaining about anything. I am trying to gather information about common practice.
I don't think that literature is something that can be learned JUST by reading the book. The important concepts in literature need to be taught. I don't think that the typical Jr. in high school (even in an honors class) can teach himself the literary concepts in a novel without any instruction. In other advanced classes my son is taking there are no quizzes on minutia. The quizzes are on the substance of the class and are given AFTER the material has been taught.
Again, I don't think what the teacher is doing is abnormal. I also find it very hard to believe the neither you nor he has ever had a pop quiz in anything. If his school is just starting to teach literary concepts NOW, you have bigger issues. Our kids started learning these things back in elementary school and if they were to have a pop quiz today on man's inhumanity to man, they would know what the teacher was talking about-and they are only sophomores.
If he was assigned a reading over the weekend a quiz on what he read isn't out of line. Was he asked to give in depth essays or just plot related questions?
Asking the principal to have him change classes is a waste of time.
I know what my son (HS senior) would tell me if he did poorly on a quiz. He would say it was just a quiz, not worth that many points and he just messed up. The first tests and quizzes with a new teacher is when the kids find out what the teachers want and expect. We have an 11th grade honors English teacher in our school that is known as a GPA buster and many kids drop down to college prep English Junior year to avoid him. However, he's also known as the best English teacher in the school. Grades aren't everything and it's good to be challenged and learn different teaching styles. I have e-mailed teachers on rare occasions but don't think I would do so about a quiz. I would just tell your son to expect more of the same....
Well, I'm just enjoying this thread, and I hope you tell us what the teacher says after your talk with her. I agree, there is something going on that would cause a really high achieving kid to go off track in just one class, and I'm curious.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
