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Many of us teach and accept the lower pay for more security because we love the job. But when you take away the security and keep the lower pay, there comes a point when we have to sacrifice our own passion for the job for security for our families.
(I need a thumbs up frowny here don't I???)
I've already asked my family to sacrifice a lot so I can teach. Take away job security and we're way beyond reasonable on what they've given up for my career. The fact is, I'm capable of earning twice what I do as a teacher and that alone gives tremendous security to my family. If they take away job security, I have to start chasing a paycheck so I can make sure my family is cared for. I can't risk having a low paying job that disappears because a BOE kid didn't get an A...and we all know it would happen.
i have ancedotes too............. you think offices aren't political either? - give me a break
while not a teacher, i'm married to one ....... my brother is one, my grandmother was one, my uncle is one, both of my first cousins are ..... tons of teachers in my family & circle of friends
I thought of doing it - but the pay isn't close to what I would want for my time/effort ... full kudos to those who chose the path of less pay though ... it's definitely a passion play for most
for your ancedote about your physics professor who was let go without tenure I'll offer up my HS physics professor who was a seething racists & homophobe ... drug addict as well .... he hung on in large part because of politics and how hard it is to remove tenured teachers
I remember we had a speaker whose son died of aids .... he told us we should pay attention because unfortunately aids isn't just for the gays anymore, there are bisexuals out there who have gay sex, get infected and then spread it to straight people who will then spread it to other straight people ... so we should pay attention
Are you a teacher?
It is not "hot air" to be worried about being a victim of one parents vendetta or a new administrator looking to place someone they "like" better in your job. As a researcher I can only be fired if my supervisor whose bottom line is best if I am a good researcher. But in a school if any one of the 200 plus parents per teacher, 30 some odd supervisors and administrators or 10 board of ed members can get you fired for reasons that have nothing to do with how well you do your job.
Are you a sales rep?
It is not "hot air" to be worried about being a victim of one customers vendetta or a new manager looking to place someone they "like" better in your job. .... in my company if any one of the 200 plus customers per sale reps, 30 some odd supervisors or 10 managers can get you fired for reasons that have nothing to do with how well you do your job.
That is how business is conducted in the rest of the country. Except there is no paranoia only the realization that sometimes you draw good companies and cultures and sometimes poor ones. You can plug in almost any private employement position with the same result. There are good and bad bosses and many ungrounded fears. Well, the fears are grounded in reality of what most experience due to their own failings or ill fortune. There should never be tenure in any occupation.
Upper class welfare is what a professor of mine said tenure is. Everyone wants it. My wife is an adjunct professor and sees and hears more abuses than benefits from tenure. Of course, she would love to be tenure-track. That is her goal.
I note one poster constantly mentions he wants to teach in a manner he wants to do...well in business you do what your next senior in the TOO says not what you want. Start your business if you want to report only to yourself.
People fight desparately for their priviledges and will rationalize almost anything to retain them.
Are you a sales rep?
It is not "hot air" to be worried about being a victim of one customers vendetta or a new manager looking to place someone they "like" better in your job. .... in my company if any one of the 200 plus customers per sale reps, 30 some odd supervisors or 10 managers can get you fired for reasons that have nothing to do with how well you do your job.
That is how business is conducted in the rest of the country. Except there is no paranoia only the realization that sometimes you draw good companies and cultures and sometimes poor ones. You can plug in almost any private employement position with the same result. There are good and bad bosses and many ungrounded fears. Well, the fears are grounded in reality of what most experience due to their own failings or ill fortune. There should never be tenure in any occupation.
Upper class welfare is what a professor of mine said tenure is. Everyone wants it. My wife is an adjunct professor and sees and hears more abuses than benefits from tenure. Of course, she would love to be tenure-track. That is her goal.
I note one poster constantly mentions he wants to teach in a manner he wants to do...well in business you do what your next senior in the TOO says not what you want. Start your business if you want to report only to yourself.
People fight desparately for their priviledges and will rationalize almost anything to retain them.
If you're a sales rep, you have your sales history to fall back on. If you're good, it shows and that protects you. Teachers have no such proof of how good they are. We have no control over the state test scores they want to tie our employment to. There is no sales history that we can prove our worth to the school with.
In industry, if you happen to have a boss who is out to get you, and it happens, you transfer to another department. Let's see, there is, exactly ONE chemistry teacher in my district, where should I transfer to when the new principal wants to give my job to his nephew?
Read my lips....WITHOUT job security, a low paying job like teaching offers no security for my family. As an engineer, I am judged by MY work record. I can get additional training to become more valuable to the company. I can make an argument that I earn money for the company. I can't do any of this as a teacher. While more education, in theory, is valued, in reality it means they pay me more but they don't get one red cent more from the state for my additional education so it hurts their bottom line. So does sticking around because of raises. Do you have any idea how much a single school could save if they made it a point to get rid of teachers before they can reach top pay in the district? I'm willing to bet over an average of $20K per teacher on the rolls.
The BIG difference between industry and education is the fact that in industry employees are valuable to companies. They bring in revenue. Teachers do not bring in revenue. We just cost. Schools don't get more money for higher test scores or more educated teachers. The ONLY way they can have more money to work with is to eliminate or reduce the cost of services. A new hire teacher right out of college makes about $38K/year here. A veteran with 15+ years experience and a masters degree plus 30 credits somewhere around $80K. Do you NOT see how attractive it will be to replace that 15 year teacher with a new hire? There's an instant savings of $42K that first year. You can, literally, hire two new hires for the price of one veteran teacher. And you actually WONDER why we balk at staying in this profession without some form of job security?
As an engineer, I can make myself more valuable to the company. I can find ways to bring in more revenue/reduce costs. I can earn salary increases by making/saving money for the company. My value is objective. As a teacher I never bring in more revenue. I only cost and the cost goes up with more experience. AND my percieved value is subjective.
^^^You constantly mention or imply that there is inevitably a problem with managment. That is your paranoia which you are attempting to impose on an entire occupation.
Your supposition regarding what is valued and there being lack of proof regarding competency is incorrect as it is quickly known among peers and good managers whether a staff member is capable. This occurs in the regular workforce as well. There are other occupations which have clear tables of seniority and do have this issue of being let go in higher pay grades.
Teaching is not low paying. A person is paid for the required duties of their occupation.
Agreed regarding there are many issues with the entire Education establishment in this country which need to be addressed.
I could write more pts. but have to return to work.
Yep - same deal with knowing contribution ...... a favorable sales record does not a good employee make .... i've seen a lot of guys with great sales who did a horrible job .... the devil is always in the details
A teachers evaluation goes beyond test scores and if you have a good record within the district, do the right things, etc having issues with 1 student or parent isn't going to jeopardize your career ..... in the off chance that it did, then it's obviously not a good environment and you'll be better off somewhere else
You seem to have, conveniently, left out the words "...without any protection..." when you passed judgement on me.
Well I guess it's because I've always lived in a right to work state where employment is "at will". I've never had protection so there's nothing to miss.
In a right to work state you could be let go at any moment or have your contract not renewed near the end of the school year.
That's just the environment I've always lived in (FL and TX).
Maybe you have an ungrounded fear ?
^^^You constantly mention or imply that there is inevitably a problem with managment. That is your paranoia which you are attempting to impose on an entire occupation.
Your supposition regarding what is valued and there being lack of proof regarding competency is incorrect as it is quickly known among peers and good managers whether a staff member is capable. This occurs in the regular workforce as well. There are other occupations which have clear tables of seniority and do have this issue of being let go in higher pay grades.
Teaching is not low paying. A person is paid for the required duties of their occupation.
Agreed regarding there are many issues with the entire Education establishment in this country which need to be addressed.
I could write more pts. but have to return to work.
Without controls, there would be problems with administrators. It's only a matter of time before you have a boss who has a nephew who wants a job. If there is no protection for the employee in said job, you have a problem. This is why we have tenure. To protect against an administrator who wants to give his nephew a job or just doesn't see eye to eye with you on educational philosophy. In industry, all I have to do to have job security is make myself valuable. There is no way to do that as a teacher. The longer I'm around, the more I cost and the district doesn't get one red cent more for my being more experienced and educated (the government does NOT put their money where their mouth is. If they REALLY want highly educated teachers, all they have to do is give the districts who hire them more money for hiring them.). There is no increased output because I'm more valuable like there is in industry. My output is no different than that of the new hire who makes $40K less than a 15 year teacher. There is no incentive to allow teachers to ever reach maximum pay. And yes, with the financial pressures that districts face these days, I expect this will be a problem. If you can't make more money, you have to reduce spending. I quick way to do that is replace a long time teacher with a new hire. Tenure stops them now. They have to show cause to get rid of a teacher and it has to go deeper than a BOE kid didn't get an A.
As an engineer, I have some control over my fate. I can keep up, improve my skills, make myself more valuable. As a teacher, there is nothing I can do to make myself more valuable to the district because no matter what I do the amount the state pays per head in my classroom is the same as the next classroom. The only way experienced teachers would be worth more to schools is if being experienced meant you could handle ever increasing class sizes.
You aren't grasping that teaching is VERY different than the rest of the work world.
And teaching is low paying. I could work as either an engineer or chemist and make twice what I make right now. That makes it low paying, compared to other professions. Comparing equal education, industry pays better. Given a choice between a low paying job with no job security and not even a severance package and a high paying job that is equally unstable, which would you choose? If you take away job security, the risk of teaching will be too high. My family is far better off if I take a high paying contract position in industry. I may be looking for a job again in a year but I'll make twice the money in the meantime so we'll be better able to weather unemployment while I find another job.
^^^Do not condescend me or I will discontinue being courteous to you.
I suggest you are afraid of change and see only the negative aspects which we face in regular industry.
By your own admition you do not wish to work in harness of a senior in the TOO as to how to teach. That alone makes you intractable in a situation where your senior will direct you to do as their responsibilities and duties lead them to believe. The nepotism/favortism issue is one you mention as well as if you will be the one who will not be favored. I suggest outstanding staff are favored by their seniors and it is the ocassional politic driven person who is able to triumph in the face of ability.
You could work as an engineer as could my HS physics teacher, (former FPL engineer), but that is not the case. Teaching is not to be compared to your past life or other occupations but to the duties and responsiblities therein. It is adequate pay as it should be. I do not believe rank and file gov't workers are under/overpaid. The pay grades appear reasonable. There are aspects of compensation which are questionable-accured days, pensions, etc but working wages is not one of them.
Again, I suggest you have closed your mind and are unable to see and accept the end of a priviledge which has no place in current realities. Teaching is not different. You are setting youself apart to rationalize a priviledge and create all sorts of demons which will arise if the situation where changed.
Job security comes from professionalism and ability. Again that is obvious to peers and capable managers.
^^^Do not condescend me or I will discontinue being courteous to you.
I suggest you are afraid of change and see only the negative aspects which we face in regular industry.
By your own admition you do not wish to work in harness of a senior in the TOO as to how to teach. That alone makes you intractable in a situation where your senior will direct you to do as their responsibilities and duties lead them to believe. The nepotism/favortism issue is one you mention as well as if you will be the one who will not be favored. I suggest outstanding staff are favored by their seniors and it is the ocassional politic driven person who is able to triumph in the face of ability.
You could work as an engineer as could my HS physics teacher, (former FPL engineer), but that is not the case. Teaching is not to be compared to your past life or other occupations but to the duties and responsiblities therein. It is adequate pay as it should be. I do not believe rank and file gov't workers are under/overpaid. The pay grades appear reasonable. There are aspects of compensation which are questionable-accured days, pensions, etc but working wages is not one of them.
Again, I suggest you have closed your mind and are unable to see and accept the end of a priviledge which has no place in current realities. Teaching is not different. You are setting youself apart to rationalize a priviledge and create all sorts of demons which will arise if the situation where changed.
Job security comes from professionalism and ability. Again that is obvious to peers and capable managers.
Wow...threats....
You don't even know me but you declare I'm afraid of change . NOPE. Not even close. I've STATED CLEARLY my reasons for not wanting to stay in a low paying profession without job security. Just READ my posts. I'm not sure why you don't seem to get it. I've come right out and said it. In plain English. In my opionion and in MY life, the combination of low pay and no security is undesirable. I would rather couple high pay with no security so I can prepare incase I end up out of work, but I'm willing to take low pay and high security because even though the pay isn't high, I'm doing something I love and I have the reasonable expectation of continued paychecks even if they are small to count on. If I have to gamble with being employed next year, I'm going to go for as much money as I can make this year or some kind of safety net (like the severance package I had at my last employer before teaching). The worst case would be to end up unemployed after being low paid and having nothing in the bank as a result. I draw the line at taking that risk with my family.
I do not feel I have as much control over my continued employement as a teacher as I did as an engineer. I cannot make myself more valuable to the district. The only thing I can ever do is cost them more. The only thing they can ever do in response to belt tightening is cut costs. I'M A COST!!! Without tenure, it's too tempting to replace higher paid teachers with newer lower paid teachers and I have no protection nor do I have anything to fall back on because I, foolishly, accepted low pay and no security. Teaching doesn't work like industry. Trust me...I've done both!!!
AGAIN...WRT to the pay comparison, compare to simliar educations in industry. I'm worth about twice what I'm paid now in industry. That makes teaching low paying considering the educational requirement for my job. Now if you take away tenure, you've left me with nothing to fall back on so I'm going to take the pay raise and go back into industry. Even if I end up on a year to year contract, I will make more so I can save more and have something to fall back on if/when they don't renew my contract.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 07-21-2011 at 06:27 PM..
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(I need a thumbs up frowny here don't I???)
I draw the line at taking that risk with my family. 
