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I think they should be handled separately. I honestly think incoming high school students need a separate writing class to address basic language and stylistic issues. English I, ideally, would be all about expressing oneself coherently and cogently. Maybe make it repeatable once for credit for the C or D+ student who wants to improve. English II, then, would be a literature overview, and junior and senior year would be semester-long departmental electives on things like poetry, playwriting, Brit Lit, Spanish Lit, Modern American Lit, or what my high school called "Concord Authors" (Emerson, Thoreau, Hawthorne, the Alcotts).
In theory maybe, but when students are tested their sophomore year on reading skills that includes certain terminology BESIDES writing, it just cannot be done. PLUS, one has to look at county and state standards before something like what you suggest could be done; and I know it wouldn't fly in mine.
Well each school is different in its requirements, and I don't think you can base your son's experiences as to what happens across the board. At my school, we do cover all of the bases (and our students even write in other classes), EXCEPT, that the college bound track is geared for COLLEGE which IS knowing things that their college professors EXPECT them to know about writing and literature.
Our kids write in all of their classes as well but I really think English teachers are better at teaching writing than History or Science teachers. I would love to see kids being taught more writing by people who really know how to write and how to teach writing. If you take a look at standardized tests most kids do better on the reading and math portions of the SAT than the writing portion. I think that is caused by the college prep curriculum that is taught across the US. I agree that things are different in different regions but I still think that there is much more emphasis on reading than there is on writing.
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Originally Posted by Americanwoman54
Thus it does not deal with the same type of writing that our regular students do as they are geared more to business and "real world" experiences.
I only have experience with college prep (honors) classes.
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Originally Posted by Americanwoman54
My honors classes only write 2 full lit analysis papers. They have a writing portfolio that by the end of the year will include, besides those 2 essays, the following: 2 poems, many reflective responses, 2 informal essays, 1 persuasive essay, 1 love letter (as I think this is a dying art, but we read REAL ones from history to get us going ), essay test answers, a college essay/personal statement, a research paper, as well as beginning 2 topics and responding to 4 on the LUNCH net site. But besides this, they also will have a European pen pal to contend with!! AND to me, that is a lot of writing to go along with the literature, vocabulary, oral presentations, SAT/ACT prep and critical thinking.
My kids seem to do an endless amount of literary analysis in their honors English classes. They do a speech and some SAT prep as well but most of the curriculum seems to revolve around literature. Perhaps it only seems that way from my perspective. I really think that college bound kids need a more varied English curriculum.
My oldest son is taking a College Writing class at the suggestion of his guidance counselor. He gets good grades in English but when I mentioned that I thought his writing was weak she suggested he take this class.
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Originally Posted by Americanwoman54
We teachers do not just MAKE UP the "stuff" our students are to learn (as you know due to being a former one yourself). We have to follow the district curriculum and the state standards, and there is a big difference in our district as to what the "powers that be" think a college bound student needs to know compared to a non-college bound one.
AND getting back to the original post, looking at what I had just written as well as what others have as well, I do NOT see any of this diminishing in the future. I think the most of the canon will still be read, but new works will be added to it.
I know that English teachers do not make up the curriculum. My comments are based more upon being someone who has actually attended college, worked in the real word (business and academic). I think that there are some skills missing from our college bound students. I would love to see them addressed. I realize that teachers in the classroom cannot make up a curriculum on their own. I would still love to see it though.....
Well, call me old fashioned, but classroom participation does have to figure in there somewhere. Ideally, once a student is a competent writer, then they would participate in and be graded on a number of different methods.
That's usually just fluff. Many university classes have only exams and papers(or projects) as grading components. Asking questions or talking in class might be helpful to better understanding but they will do not necessarily or ought to bump up your grade. I also never had a class where summarizing a plot (or subject matter such as history, my major) was considered sufficient for a passing grade. That is not analysis, developing a thesis or critically thinking. It is just providing a synopsis, which is often not necessary. I think even with literature that plotless pieces ought to be included.
I think they should be handled separately. I honestly think incoming high school students need a separate writing class to address basic language and stylistic issues. English I, ideally, would be all about expressing oneself coherently and cogently. Maybe make it repeatable once for credit for the C or D+ student who wants to improve. English II, then, would be a literature overview, and junior and senior year would be semester-long departmental electives on things like poetry, playwriting, Brit Lit, Spanish Lit, Modern American Lit, or what my high school called "Concord Authors" (Emerson, Thoreau, Hawthorne, the Alcotts).
In theory maybe, but when students are tested their sophomore year on reading skills that includes certain terminology BESIDES writing, it just cannot be done. PLUS, one has to look at county and state standards before something like what you suggest could be done; and I know it wouldn't fly in mine.
Oh, I know. I'm kind of pie-in-the-sky here; I don't really expect that anything sensible is likely to ever happen because of the Testing Uber Alles mindset.
That's usually just fluff. Many university classes have only exams and papers(or projects) as grading components. Asking questions or talking in class might be helpful to better understanding but they will do not necessarily or ought to bump up your grade. I also never had a class where summarizing a plot (or subject matter such as history, my major) was considered sufficient for a passing grade. That is not analysis, developing a thesis or critically thinking. It is just providing a synopsis, which is often not necessary. I think even with literature that plotless pieces ought to be included.
Mmphm. My experiences do not mirror yours. Perhaps it depends on what sort of college/uni you go to.
Our forefathers based this country on the 10 commandments and the Christian Bible. This has been eliminated from USA schools since 1964. Public schools teach that men having sex with men is a civil right. It teaches that we evolved from a ape. It teaches that we should celebrate all religions, but you may not mention Jesus Christ. Public schools are interested in testing and scores, so are the students. American Literature has turned into World Literature.
Our forefathers based this country on the 10 commandments and the Christian Bible. This has been eliminated from USA schools since 1964. Public schools teach that men having sex with men is a civil right. It teaches that we evolved from a ape. It teaches that we should celebrate all religions, but you may not mention Jesus Christ. Public schools are interested in testing and scores, so are the students. American Literature has turned into World Literature.
What does this have to do with the subject of the thread?
No, our forefathers did NOT base the Constitution on the ten commandments or the Christian Bible, btw. However, that is a different discussion. If you want to start a thread on this, it should probably be in the religion forum.
Our forefathers based this country on the 10 commandments and the Christian Bible. This has been eliminated from USA schools since 1964. Public schools teach that men having sex with men is a civil right. It teaches that we evolved from a ape. It teaches that we should celebrate all religions, but you may not mention Jesus Christ. Public schools are interested in testing and scores, so are the students. American Literature has turned into World Literature.
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Our forefathers based this country on the 10 commandments and the Christian Bible. This has been eliminated from USA schools since 1964. Public schools teach that men having sex with men is a civil right. It teaches that we evolved from a ape. It teaches that we should celebrate all religions, but you may not mention Jesus Christ. Public schools are interested in testing and scores, so are the students. American Literature has turned into World Literature.
Funny thing is that the First Amendment goes against the First Commandment. The call to require only worshiping the Abrahamic God is in conflict with the government allowing you to worship or not worship whatever you see first. A free and represenative government and Christendom are incompatible. How are non-Christians or Christians who disagree with you free if they have to live under your religious rules? Even though you might dislike it, people do have the right to privacy and adults have the right to have consensual sex with other adults.And I hate to break it to you but not only do we have apes as ancestors but homo sapiens are apes. That's what our species falls under. And yes American literature is still taught in schools across the board. World Literature? Only sometimes.
PS: Funny thing you don't complain about women on women sex; I see we share some of the same web browsing habits.
Originally Posted by slowbill Our forefathers based this country on the 10 commandments and the Christian Bible. This has been eliminated from USA schools since 1964. Public schools teach that men having sex with men is a civil right. It teaches that we evolved from a ape. It teaches that we should celebrate all religions, but you may not mention Jesus Christ. Public schools are interested in testing and scores, so are the students. American Literature has turned into World Literature.
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Originally Posted by poletop1
Funny thing is that the First Amendment goes against the First Commandment. The call to require only worshiping the Abrahamic God is in conflict with the government allowing you to worship or not worship whatever you see first. A free and represenative government and Christendom are incompatible. How are non-Christians or Christians who disagree with you free if they have to live under your religious rules? Even though you might dislike it, people do have the right to privacy and adults have the right to have consensual sex with other adults.And I hate to break it to you but not only do we have apes as ancestors but homo sapiens are apes. That's what our species falls under. And yes American literature is still taught in schools across the board. World Literature? Only sometimes.
PS: Funny thing you don't complain about women on women sex; I see we share some of the same web browsing habits.
Slowbill. I mention Jesus all the time when I teach The Crucible and The Scarlett Letter. American lit is alive and well as far as I know in this country, especially since a lot of it is the 'canon' which this thread is about. And TRUST ME that kid are not interested in testing for the most part, nor are the teachers if you would take a poll as they have taken over real "learning".
Poletop, from what I know as well, World Literature is taught as well in many states. In my county it is Sophomore English, but other levels (except juniors) get some parts of it as well. In fact, I have friends who teach in several states, and I don't know of one district that doesn't. May I ask why you thought that???
and about your PS
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), essay test answers, a college essay/personal statement, a research paper, as well as beginning 2 topics and responding to 4 on the LUNCH net site. But besides this, they also will have a European pen pal to contend with!! 
AND to me, that is a lot of writing to go along with the literature, vocabulary, oral presentations, SAT/ACT prep and critical thinking.
