Behavior Problems! What are teachers supposed to do? (employment, logic, district)

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by lhpartridge

Do you really think that they would care? If the parents' only concern is their children's GPAs and not their education, they might be thrilled to have a long-term sub in the allotment of not-highly-qualified teachers for, especially for these really difficult classes.

In my district they care about appearances. The parents want to say that the chemistry teacher is a former chemical engineer AND their child got an A. They're still trying to figure out how to get both, though the parents whose kids are getting A's from me are thrilled. The question is who has more pull?

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by jasper12

There is nothing wrong with long term subs. Don't feel too safe.
It seems like some teachers never "get it", and always have classroom discipline issues. I never had problems, kids sat in their seats, and did their work. Isolated issues were taken care of quickly, I always found modeling was the best plan, and "problem", kids were identified, and placed front and center.

I would analyze, when do you lose the class? Is it all classes? Just a few? What are you doing when the class loses control?

It's just one class. There are three kids in the class who seem to have as their only objective, detrailing the lesson so they don't have to learn anything and three others who will jump on the band wagon when they start up. I have no issues in three classes, minimal issues in two (It's rare for me to send someone to the office in either of them.) and the issues in the last class are handled by the team teacher who sends kids to the office regularly. In my regular chem classes, all I have to do is speed up. If they're not paying attention, I'll say something like "Oh, I see you have this down, let's move on...." They don't stay off track long.

I'm about to move one of my problem children to the back of the room. She thrives on attention. As soon as she says something intended to be disruptive, she's looking around to see what response she's getting. What I need are isolation booths to put them in.

I did get permission to put a camera in my room. One of my regular chem classes tends to get off task (not disruptive, just distracted) and if I really want them to pay attention, I hit the record button on my smart board. As soon as they realize everything they say is being recorded, you can hear a pin drop.

[lkb0714]

Originally Posted by scocar

I'm not naive. I've butted heads with my administrators on a few occasions. I also taught in the same district, at the same school for 6 years. I've always received very positive reviews. You have to know how to communicate with people. If you have your documents and facts and you present your case as way to help students then the administrator would look like a fool to ignore you. Are there some administrators that are power hungry morons? Maybe. I've never worked for one though.

This might be semantics, but I see expectations and standards as two separate things. I have standards that I hold the kids accountable for. I do not lower those standards. An example would be that I have a standard that no one gets out of their seat, for anything, without first getting permission from me. I do not expect that I will never have a student get out of their seat without permission all year. My standard is firm, my expectation is that I will have to remind or instill consequences to those that don't meet the standard. The problem I see is that too many teachers make their standard and expectation the same thing. Then they are filled with frustration when their students don't meet it.

I just moved to Missouri, and have not taught here yet. I'm not familiar with comparisons by state, which are almost impossible to do since most states don't take the same tests. What you are basing your information on?

Look at any measure. Missouri is never at the top, and Arizona (where I believe you taught before?) is nearly always dead last.

As for standards and expectations, I have ACADEMIC expectations and rules to deal with behavior. They are entirely separate with separate consequences. One is a discipline issue and the other is not. And that is not semantics.

As for Administrators, I am not sure why you think that your experience at one school is the norm.

[lkb0714]

Originally Posted by scocar

So would they be better off taking the advice of someone that has taught successfully in the same school, with multiple administrators for 6 years, or the advice of someone that has jumped from teaching job to teaching job, and is so disgusted with the profession that they are leaving it?

Not saying that you have done the latter, but some other posters that you seem to agree with have.

Then based on this reasoning they should listen to me not you. Three schools (four if you count long term subs) too many administrators to count, offered tenure at every one and over 7 years at my current school.

And given the FACT that the majority of teachers that leave do so within 5 years. This persons experience is not the same as mine but the data shows that is the same experience as a large portion of teachers. So therefore I will reiterate that it is naive and irresponsible to have untenured teachers risk their livelihoods based on your experience in ONE SCHOOL.

[lkb0714]

Originally Posted by scocar

I have a general question regarding lowering standards. Our jobs as teachers is to help the students learn. The grade they receive is really secondary. So if I altered my teaching such that more students learned more material, but at the same time altered my grading so that more students received A's and B's versus C's and D's am I really lowering my standards?

Here's an example: Let's say I kept all my material the same from the previous year. I used the same tests, same lessons, same homework. But the second year I allowed some more out of class research opportunities for extra credit. Clearly my grades would improve due to the opportunities for extra credit, but I would have taught the same material in the same way, so what my students learned would be the same. Have I lowered my standards?

Yes, you have lowered the standard of what it means to get that grade. Extra credit is ridiculous in and of itself in secondary or middle school. Besides if you are shifting the bell curve up all you are doing is inflating grades. A student who gets an A in a class should also get the same 93% on any national test of that material. Are you actually claiming your students do better on objective measures of their progress than they do in your class?

Grades would be better, and students would still be learning. It's kind of like allowing corrections on quizzes. I allow corrections to be made on all quizzes (not exams, just quizzes). I only allow the students to gain back half of their lost points, so their is still incentive to study for the quiz the first time around. If I did not allow corrections, my grades would be much lower than when I do. But I'm also having my students go over the material a second time. So I'm actually increasing learning, by making it easier to get a higher grade.

No you have made it easier to get a higher grade. If you really were "connecting" (as you keep accusing the rest of us of being unable to do) with your students you wouldn't need to be bribing them to study a second time with points. They would come in on their own.

All you have done is make a grade inflating scheme that is bastardization of two different teaching philosophies, Bloom's summative/formative paradigm and classical assessments.

The only meaningful way to use summative/formatives is to remove grades from the equation completely. Either you have mastered the material or you have not. Personally I prefer this system and would do away with grades as the practice of many teachers who give "extra credit" and retests is making the assigning of grade completely meaningless.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by lkb0714

Yes, you have lowered the standard of what it means to get that grade. Extra credit is ridiculous in and of itself in secondary or middle school. Besides if you are shifting the bell curve up all you are doing is inflating grades. A student who gets an A in a class should also get the same 93% on any national test of that material. Are you actually claiming your students do better on objective measures of their progress than they do in your class?

No you have made it easier to get a higher grade. If you really were "connecting" (as you keep accusing the rest of us of being unable to do) with your students you wouldn't need to be bribing them to study a second time with points. They would come in on their own.

All you have done is make a grade inflating scheme that is bastardization of two different teaching philosophies, Bloom's summative/formative paradigm and classical assessments.

The only meaningful way to use summative/formatives is to remove grades from the equation completely. Either you have mastered the material or you have not. Personally I prefer this system and would do away with grades as the practice of many teachers who give "extra credit" and retests is making the assigning of grade completely meaningless.

ITA. I give very little extra credit and when I do, it's tough enough that most students won't do it (the majority of teachers, in my school, give extra credit for bringing in Kleenex and hand sanitizer). Retests I have no choice on. I'm, simply, not allowed to fail more than a handfull of students on a test. It's proof I didn't teach the material to my adminstration. I just gave a test where I know that half of my students (I kid you not) chose to copy their work from someone else for the homework or wait for me to do the solutions in class. Surprise, surprise, 30% of my students failed the test. When you don't do the practice work yourself, you don't learn the material and you don't know how to do it on the test. I can't even curve this as the failures are dismal and I have a significant number of high A's. So, I'll offer a retest. Most won't do much better on the retest but I can say I offered it.

Now, IF I were tenured (and it still meant something to be tenured). I'd put the grades up, ask my students to take out a piece of paper and instruct them to write their grade at the top of the page and then answer the following questions: 1) Did you copy your homework from a friend or do it yourself. 2) Did you copy the calculations from the lab from a friend or do the work yourself (the most missed question is the one that was just like the lab). 3) Did you wait until Mrs. I worked the bellwork problems instead of attempting them yourself. 4) Did you work through the example problems in the book? Then in my best Dr. Phil voice, I'd ask "How's that working out for you?"

We spent three days doing nothing but calculations in class where I was available to answer questions. I told my class, exactly, what the first problem would be on the test and worked, at least, three examples of that problem (1/3 of them missed it ). Other problems were taken from the worksheets we worked or the lab or examples I worked in class. We actually stayed on topic two days longer than last year due to interruptions like assemblies and college visits.

I swear, about 1/3 of my students are trying to copy their way through my class and you just can't do that. You can't learn chemistry without doing your own work. I would love to let these grades stand. Maybe they'd learn something. However, I can't. This is the kind of stuff teachers lose their jobs over. I have three choices: 1) stay on topic so long that the I have few failures but give 35+% A's. 2) pace like we should but give a retest or 3) risk not having a job next year.

Day after day I see the same students not even attempting the bellwork. If I ask them why they aren't trying it I get "I don't know how to do it". I go over it. I'm notorious for picking problems from the bellwork. They still fail. According to parents and my administrators, that's my fault in spite of the fact I'm giving about 25% of my students A's.

I am going to start giving more quizzes. I spoke to another teacher about this and she confirmed that I have to force them to do their own work and I have to attach a grade or they will not take it seriously. I tend to hold off on quizzes until I think they should know the material and use them sparingly. Looks like we're going to daily or every other day quizzes. They are not learning anything copying each other's work. In one class they're copying last years work. I had one girl try to turn in worksheets done last year (she either erased the name on the papers or tore off the corner with the name on it).

BTW, I do allow students to earn back 50% of the credit lost on quizzes because I'd be hung out to dry if I didn't. I'm thinking this is the last year I'll do that. I'm thinking that redos and retakes just make kids lazy. Unfortunately, I've set precident this year. It was done with the rigth intention but I think it's backfiring.

[TabulaRasa]

All of my students have their progress assessed based on whether or not they have demonstrated independent mastery of the material, versus credits/grades earned...it really IS the most effective measurement, for my particular students.

[scocar]

Originally Posted by lkb0714

Then based on this reasoning they should listen to me not you. Three schools (four if you count long term subs) too many administrators to count, offered tenure at every one and over 7 years at my current school.

And given the FACT that the majority of teachers that leave do so within 5 years. This persons experience is not the same as mine but the data shows that is the same experience as a large portion of teachers. So therefore I will reiterate that it is naive and irresponsible to have untenured teachers risk their livelihoods based on your experience in ONE SCHOOL.

You have give ZERO evidence that it is risking their livelihood. Just because you think it is, does not make it so. If you can communicate and express yourself then you should have no problem voicing concerns in ANY job. By your logic no one that does not have tenure should ever try to improve their workplace. That's defeatist and stupid in my opinion.

[scocar]

Originally Posted by lkb0714

Yes, you have lowered the standard of what it means to get that grade. Extra credit is ridiculous in and of itself in secondary or middle school. Besides if you are shifting the bell curve up all you are doing is inflating grades. A student who gets an A in a class should also get the same 93% on any national test of that material. Are you actually claiming your students do better on objective measures of their progress than they do in your class?

No you have made it easier to get a higher grade. If you really were "connecting" (as you keep accusing the rest of us of being unable to do) with your students you wouldn't need to be bribing them to study a second time with points. They would come in on their own.

All you have done is make a grade inflating scheme that is bastardization of two different teaching philosophies, Bloom's summative/formative paradigm and classical assessments.

The only meaningful way to use summative/formatives is to remove grades from the equation completely. Either you have mastered the material or you have not. Personally I prefer this system and would do away with grades as the practice of many teachers who give "extra credit" and retests is making the assigning of grade completely meaningless.

I disagree with your bitter, angry attitude towards education. In my opinion teachers have two main goals. Teach their kids the standards that the state has deemed appropriate, so that they learn them is first. And second is to create an environment that makes them enjoy school. However you do that is your choice within certain acceptable parameters. But complaining about everything serves neither of those purposes.

I know what my standards are, you do not. Try and access some amount of humility you might possess, and comment on the facts not your opinion of them. If my kids learn the material AND enjoy school then I've done my job. How I choose to assign grades is of no relation to the other two objectives.

FWIW I give very little extra credit. And I NEVER give extra credit to individual students. If extra credit is given it's offered as a whole to the entire class. But you go ahead and based on one EXAMPLE I use keep jumping to your conclusions.

I've met people like you before. You have your entire mind made up after reading one post, and nothing I say is going to alter it. You probably are formulating your responses as you're reading mine, without really digesting what I'm saying. So I'll continue this pointless discussion as long as you want, with the full understanding that you attitude alone will keep it from ever being remotely productive.

[scocar]

Originally Posted by lkb0714

Look at any measure. Missouri is never at the top, and Arizona (where I believe you taught before?) is nearly always dead last.

As for standards and expectations, I have ACADEMIC expectations and rules to deal with behavior. They are entirely separate with separate consequences. One is a discipline issue and the other is not. And that is not semantics.

As for Administrators, I am not sure why you think that your experience at one school is the norm.

Show me a measure. If you are going to make the statements present the facts. Most states now give state established tests. So kids in each state take different tests.

I looked up ACT and SAT scores by state though. And based on that data you are dead wrong in your assessments of AZ and MO. In states where at least 20% of the students took the SAT (some states most student take the ACT instead), Arizona ranked 10th out of 29. In states where the majority of students took the ACT Missouri ranked 12th out of 30.

Best and Worst States: State SAT Scores 2009

State-by-state SAT and ACT scores | Public Agenda