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You know, there's this crazy class of people that actually enjoy being around kids and helping them to learn AND know more than enough to teach a group of students who won't be specializing in that particular field in college or choose it as a career.
Plus I keep seeing this assumption that all those high GPA'ers would have chose the teaching field if only the paychecks were better. Really?
First of all, no one has provided any real numbers to back up that assertion and second, you're assuming those people have a desire to be a teacher in the first place. Hate to tell you but even before the current highly-stressful school atmosphere appeared (e.g. discipline is old-fashioned, parents who don't parent and spineless admistrations) few people EVER wanted to be a teacher. It is (duh) very people-oriented - how many people do you know that have told teachers "Jeez I could never stand to be around kids all day - you must be a saint!" - and requires a boatload of patience. At the risk of sounding arrogant, yes, it takes a special person to be a teacher and not everyone has those qualities.
I'd love to see an experiment over a five year period where a high school paid all teachers, including those fresh out of college, a minimum of $100K per year. We'll see how many last because I highly doubt most will stick with it.
Quote: "Jeez I could never stand to be around kids all day - you must be a saint!" - and requires a boatload of patience. At the risk of sounding arrogant, yes, it takes a special person to be a teacher and not everyone has those qualities"
So do daycare workers. At $8/hr. There only disadvantage is that they don't have a union like teachers do, which gouges the taxpayer.
And the statement: "Hate to tell you but even before the current highly-stressful school atmosphere appeared (e.g. discipline is old-fashioned, parents who don't parent and spineless admistrations) few people EVER wanted to be a teacher."
Hate to tell you, but the teaching profession USED to be one of the most highly regarded occupations in the US. My grandmother became a math teacher in 1913. The steady decay of quality teachers has made the profession undesirable (btw, this has started happening to the medical field, so don't feel alone). I don't want any children being taught by anyone that graduated in the bottom third of there college class. (And this is documented). In the education arena, why do you think that (technically) PhD trumps MD?
In terms of pay, for either private company or public/government jobs, the level of pay is dictated by the value-added contribution of the job. Apparently, since teacher salaries are not exactly stellar, that states the value that most taxpayers apply to the job.
Sure, we can give teachers, including those straight out of school $100K a year, and at the same time:
1). Everyone's personal tax for the school system will go up to $2000/month
2). Police and firefighters will get $1M a year in salary
3). The school day will go from 8AM to 5PM (lunch break on your own time). School will be held year-round.
4). 10 total vacation days a year
5). Weekends and holiday work required as dictated by the public, and school board
6). Dissolution of the teachers' union
7). Pay for performance: each teacher is assessed for the performance of her students. He/she can be fired for low performance
8). Mandatory education classes, on their own time
9). Competency testing/exams administered to teachers periodically. If a test is failed, a re-try is allowed, and if failed again, termination
If you get the gist, this is often how private industry works. Teachers are living in never-never land. What color is the sky in your world?
BTW, I love to teach. I tutor individuals, and I do it for FREE. Math/science/chemistry/english/latin.... all of it. I do it because I feel obligated to make up for where our crappy public school systems (and a lot of parents) fall short. I received a wonderful education (with little thanks to the public schools), and I feel I need to give something back.
Last edited by SuperSparkle928; 11-16-2011 at 08:25 AM..
No, it's some of us with degrees in our field telling you that it makes a difference. There's only one way you can tell if having an actual degree or advanced degree in your major would help and that's to get one. I know it makes a difference in my case. It makes a difference in all three of my subject areas (math, chemistry and physics). Probably less so in math but I only have an ed major in math (40 credits) so I'm not sure I'm qualified to make that assessment. Maybe if I had a BA in math, I'd think it matters as much there too. I'll have to leave the answer to that to someone who studied more math than I did. I studied engineering which is applied math. My engineering background helps when I teach math because I know what the math is used for.
So in other word, I am not qualified to have an opinion. LOL
Okay, let's put this in context of the thread.
Do I think teachers are overpaid? No. I think they are underpaid and under-appreciated. Teaching is a real skill.
Do I think having an extensive background in something make someone a better teacher? Possibly. If you are a good teacher a deep understanding of the subject it can make you great.
If I was the principal of a high school, would I hire math teachers trained in math teaching, English teachers trained in English teaching, etc? Yes, that would be my preference. In a perfect world, everyone would have the resources to do that.
If I had a full teaching staff and a tight budget, and had to have someone teach an extra section of algebra 1 to freshmen, would I only want the math teacher to do it? Not necessarily. If I have a fantastic English teacher who minored in math in college, or used to be pre-med, or switched out of math major is their junior year... you get the idea. I don't have an issue with that person teaching algebra. Especially if my math staff is busy teaching higher level courses and/or they suck at teaching and ain't getting any better. I would sit Mr English Lit down in January, see if he is interested in teaching a section of math next year, and if he is tell him to go prepare.
Now if Mr English Lit barely remembers algebra or got Cs in college, then I'll stick with the bad math teacher. Same scenario would apply if it was a history class and a fantastic Physics teacher who minored in history in college.
In my mind, a good teacher is the bottom line. I think they are worth their weight in gold and I would pay them handsomely. A good, seasoned teacher plus understanding of a subject can pull off an intro class, in my opinion. Does that mean a teacher trained extensively in a subject is worthless? OF COURSE NOT. Would I prefer to have those people in my school? YES. But if I had a choice between a trained English teacher who SUCKS despite attempts to help them get better and someone fantastic who has been teaching for 10 years, has some English background but was formally trained in Social Studies; guess who I am going to send in that class? The good teacher with familiarity and interest can brush up. The bad teacher will suck no matter what I do.
That's my reasoning. We disagree. I don't think it's worth arguing in circles about since it's not like I can take your job away from you, nor would I want to. We have both taught before. You have your perspective based on your experiences and observations, and I have mine. It's all good.
Plus I keep seeing this assumption that all those high GPA'ers would have chose the teaching field if only the paychecks were better. Really?
First of all, no one has provided any real numbers to back up that assertion and second, [i]you're assuming those people have a desire to be a teacher in the first place.
I present to you the staff of Ladue Horton Watkins High School.
Ladue is a public school that pays an -average- of over $90k per year, and uses merit based pay so that most of their high school teachers are earning six figures. They are the only district in the country that uses true merit based pay, by having field experts do multiple in class evaluations of their teachers every year.
While they do not have their GPAs on their websites, most have their academic background (and notice they all have websites).
BS&MS Chemistry;
BS Chem Eng+MS Env Eng;
BS&MA Biology;
AB&MA Biology;
BS English + MS GeoSciences;
PhD Chemistry (Former Sigma Exec and college prof);
BS Biology + MS Science Ed;
BS Aero Eng + MS Science Ed
All have masters degrees, with only 2 ed degrees (both MS Science Ed) in the whole group. Many of their degrees are from elite schools as well.
Few of the teachers started at Ladue; you basically have to earn your way in by succeeding in other districts.
That's what happens when you pay teachers more and go through the effort to effectively evaluate those teachers for that pay.
Last edited by marigolds6; 11-16-2011 at 11:22 AM..
So in other word, I am not qualified to have an opinion. LOL
Okay, let's put this in context of the thread.
Do I think teachers are overpaid? No. I think they are underpaid and under-appreciated. Teaching is a real skill.
Do I think having an extensive background in something make someone a better teacher? Possibly. If you are a good teacher a deep understanding of the subject it can make you great.
If I was the principal of a high school, would I hire math teachers trained in math teaching, English teachers trained in English teaching, etc? Yes, that would be my preference. In a perfect world, everyone would have the resources to do that.
If I had a full teaching staff and a tight budget, and had to have someone teach an extra section of algebra 1 to freshmen, would I only want the math teacher to do it? Not necessarily. If I have a fantastic English teacher who minored in math in college, or used to be pre-med, or switched out of math major is their junior year... you get the idea. I don't have an issue with that person teaching algebra. Especially if my math staff is busy teaching higher level courses and/or they suck at teaching and ain't getting any better. I would sit Mr English Lit down in January, see if he is interested in teaching a section of math next year, and if he is tell him to go prepare.
Now if Mr English Lit barely remembers algebra or got Cs in college, then I'll stick with the bad math teacher. Same scenario would apply if it was a history class and a fantastic Physics teacher who minored in history in college.
In my mind, a good teacher is the bottom line. I think they are worth their weight in gold and I would pay them handsomely. A good, seasoned teacher plus understanding of a subject can pull off an intro class, in my opinion. Does that mean a teacher trained extensively in a subject is worthless? OF COURSE NOT. Would I prefer to have those people in my school? YES. But if I had a choice between a trained English teacher who SUCKS despite attempts to help them get better and someone fantastic who has been teaching for 10 years, has some English background but was formally trained in Social Studies; guess who I am going to send in that class? The good teacher with familiarity and interest can brush up. The bad teacher will suck no matter what I do.
That's my reasoning. We disagree. I don't think it's worth arguing in circles about since it's not like I can take your job away from you, nor would I want to. We have both taught before. You have your perspective based on your experiences and observations, and I have mine. It's all good.
You can have an opinion but if you've never experienced something and I have, my opnion about it counts for more because I have actual experience on my side. I know that having a chemical engineering degree helps me teach chemistry because of the depth of my understanding of the material. I can answer questions now that I couldn't answer when I'd only take 4 or 6 chemistry courses. Back then, I knew what happened but I didn't know why it happened. Being able to explain why helps me teach.
Ladue is a public school that pays an -average- of over $90k per year, and uses merit based pay so that most of their high school teachers are earning six figures. They are the only district in the country that uses true merit based pay, by having field experts do multiple in class evaluations of their teachers every year.
While they do not have their GPAs on their websites, most have their academic background (and notice they all have websites).
BS&MS Chemistry;
BS Chem Eng+MS Env Eng;
BS&MA Biology;
AB&MA Biology;
BS English + MS GeoSciences;
PhD Chemistry (Former Sigma Exec and college prof);
BS Biology + MS Science Ed;
BS Aero Eng + MS Science Ed
All have masters degrees, with only 2 ed degrees (both MS Science Ed) in the whole group. Many of their degrees are from elite schools as well.
Few of the teachers started at Ladue; you basically have to earn your way in by succeeding in other districts.
That's what happens when you pay teachers more and go through the effort to effectively evaluate those teachers for that pay.
Interesting.
Of course paying the teachers so well explains why the cost to the taxpayers is almost $13K per student per year. I am surprised that the graduation rate is only 95%, and only 92.8 percent attend 2 or 4-year colleges. Class size is large (12.4:1). We averaged about 6:1 in our school (though it was private).
The test scores are fairly good, however.
Under US News (Best High Schools: State-by-State Statistics - US News and World Report)
the high schools in MO rate in the lower half (34th) of the country, and for percentage-wide analysis (to remove the total-count bias), MA (my home state) averaged 3 times better than MO in bronze, silver and gold.
Not exactly sure as to who the students are there, as it is common knowledge that:
"St. Louis has consistently been ranked among the most dangerous cities in the United States"
Having been there a few times (Two of my direct relatives got MD PhD's at Wash U), I cannot dispute that statement.
So to summarize, here in MA we pay less to teachers than you do (despite the unions), and yet, according to the grading criteria, still score better.
BTW, go to that web site, look under 'world's best universities', then under 'electrical engineering', and look at #1 and #2. This is what happens when you get a first-class high school education. Ask me about it. I should know.
You can have an opinion but if you've never experienced something and I have, my opnion about it counts for more because I have actual experience on my side. I know that having a chemical engineering degree helps me teach chemistry because of the depth of my understanding of the material. I can answer questions now that I couldn't answer when I'd only take 4 or 6 chemistry courses. Back then, I knew what happened but I didn't know why it happened. Being able to explain why helps me teach.
You can have an opinion but if you've never experienced something and I have, my opnion about it counts for more because I have actual experience on my side. I know that having a chemical engineering degree helps me teach chemistry because of the depth of my understanding of the material. I can answer questions now that I couldn't answer when I'd only take 4 or 6 chemistry courses. Back then, I knew what happened but I didn't know why it happened. Being able to explain why helps me teach.
In all this argumentation, has anybody given any thought about elementary school teachers? My wife is one, and she has to teach pretty much all the subjects: Reading, writing, math, science, history, etc. I can't imagine that it's your view that she should have a degree in all of those subjects.
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I wouldn't mention the name of THAT college....
Two options:
1). She is really slow
2). The college is lousy.
Sort of sums it up.
You don't need a doctorate in math to teach algebra. If an 8th grader can learn it, then a 10th grader can teach it.
I also hope you don't teach English: " I agree it will be bumpy at first but an experienced teacher will learn to look things up and be perplexing for issues eventually." (Perplexing is an adjective)
Nope not an English major at all. So is it not rule #24342 of the internet, to resort focus on someone's grammer. Majority of my posts are from a cell phone.
She was slow, and it was a crappy school.
The majority of schools in this country really do not get into Differential Equations. Pretty much anyone who has a college degree should be able to handle average HS level classes. I would feel better if a teacher had a degree in "teaching" where they can focus on lesson plans.
Either way, doesn't matter. Teachers feel they are under appreciated, overpaid, they cite their credentials and compare to the private sector, but to me I feel they are overqualified. I feel our education system full out wastes money, just like about every government institution.
All of these threads about basically the same thing we probably not going to agree.
1. I think that education degrees are pretty much useless.I think that by the time one is of college age, the qualities that make one a good teacher are either developed or not at that point. Certainly there are exceptions, but I think that fits the majority of people. One semester of teaching is worth more than a master's in education.
2. On teaching outside of your discipline: Is the history teacher able to answer questions on the divergence theorem? LOL. Have I read enough history to be able to understand many various and subtle influences that lead to the ______war? No.
3. With my M.S. from a top research institution, 8 years experience with great reviews, a public school where I used to live offered me $30K per year. LOL! ($15 per hour [of course 2 months off])
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I know that having a chemical engineering degree helps me teach chemistry because of the depth of my understanding of the material. I can answer questions now that I couldn't answer when I'd only take 4 or 6 chemistry courses. Back then, I knew what happened but I didn't know why it happened. Being able to explain why helps me teach.
