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You are not even arguing what I'm actually saying. The convo is over.
If you have experience teaching a subject you have a degree in, then chime in. I was under the impression you didn't have a stand along degree besides ed.
I know that my chemical engineering degree adds to my ability to teach. I can compare what I was like when I'd had the number of chem classes allowed in an ed major and what I have now. I'll admit I don't need all 87 credits but I was 60 credits in before what I teach really started to make sense. The deeper you go the more you see how things tie together. My students see that. They know they can ask me questions and there's a 99% chance I can answer them and take them deeper.
Yesterday and today were really good days. Yesterday I had two students put things together in a profound (for high school students) way when I asked a particular question. Today, I overheard a student saying "I thought I was going to hate chemistry but I really like this class". Last week my co teacher, who has been at this for 20 years, was gushing about the way I taught writing/balancing equations. She says she's never seen it done that way and just had to tell me how great she thought it was. Last year, I was observed teaching the Mole, by an administrator who used to teach science. He told me he'd never heard it taught that way before or seen kids get it so fast. My first and second year teaching saw a 30% and then and additional 5% increase in kids passing the state exams over the teacher before me AND the one who replaced me (sadly, when I left the scores dropped). THAT is what I can do with my content knowledge. When you, truely, understand something, you can teach it six different ways and backwards if you need to. You can learn classroom management but you can't fake understanding.
1. I think that education degrees are pretty much useless.I think that by the time one is of college age, the qualities that make one a good teacher are either developed or not at that point. Certainly there are exceptions, but I think that fits the majority of people. One semester of teaching is worth more than a master's in education.
2. On teaching outside of your discipline: Is the history teacher able to answer questions on the divergence theorem? LOL. Have I read enough history to be able to understand many various and subtle influences that lead to the ______war? No.
3. With my M.S. from a top research institution, 8 years experience with great reviews, a public school where I used to live offered me $30K per year. LOL! ($15 per hour [of course 2 months off])
ITA!! I wasted my time sitting in ed classes. I would have been much farther ahead if they'd just found me a permanent sub position and assigned me a mentor to help me learn the ropes. I think someone coming out of industry should take a year long course to get their certificate. They'd spend some time in class but most of their time either observing master teachers or teaching lessons they designed, then take over a classroom for a semester to finish up. What really got me to develop as a teacher was teaching.
I could not teach a class outside of my major/minor. I feel I'm qualified to teach my minor because it's physics (I have a degree in chemical engineering and enough math credits to have a math major) and I have a masters in engineering. Many of my engineering curses were, really, applied physics courses.
Interesting.
Of course paying the teachers so well explains why the cost to the taxpayers is almost $13K per student per year. I am surprised that the graduation rate is only 95%, and only 92.8 percent attend 2 or 4-year colleges. Class size is large (12.4:1). We averaged about 6:1 in our school (though it was private).
The test scores are fairly good, however.
Under US News (Best High Schools: State-by-State Statistics - US News and World Report)
the high schools in MO rate in the lower half (34th) of the country, and for percentage-wide analysis (to remove the total-count bias), MA (my home state) averaged 3 times better than MO in bronze, silver and gold.
Not exactly sure as to who the students are there, as it is common knowledge that:
"St. Louis has consistently been ranked among the most dangerous cities in the United States"
Ladue spends $23k per student per year. Missouri has a recent law that requires schools districts to accept any transfer students from a unaccredited district tuition free regardless of capacity; so about 10% of Ladue's population is transfers from Riverside Gardens or St Louis Public Schools. Considering that, and the state of those two districts, 95% grad rate is pretty good.
Ladue is in St Louis County. St Louis is, ironically, not in St Louis County but a separate metro country by itself that is only 60 square miles. St Louis has been barred from annexing for over 100 years, so it consists of only core city. St Louis Metro is actually one of the safest in the country.
The problem with self teaching is that you are limited by what the teacher doesn't know.
As a child, I wanted to take piano lessons but we couldn't afford them. I took lessons here and there, when I had the money, but I was mainly self taught. I THOUGHT I'd taught myself a lot. Then I put my dd into Yamaha classes. I was taken back by how much I didn't know as I went through the program with her. The problem with self teaching is you don't realize when you've got something wrong or that there may be other things out there you need to learn. The teacher holds you back.
It's one thing to teach yourself "more" in an area you're already an expert and quite another to teach yourself something from scratch. I think the more education you have, the more able you are to teach yourself and vice versa. Because I sat through my dd's Yamaha classes, I'm now in better position to teach myself but I now also appreciate the value of a good music teacher.
Most people with, college degrees, took and passed the classes they are teaching at one point in there life. They also likely show an interest in the subject as well. They are not coming off the street no clue what is going on.
Please don't start preaching about such and such AP program where they teach typically 2nd and 3rd year college math classes.
unfortunately, there are too many who know the price of everything but the value of nothing.
qft.
Lots of numbers here but not a lot of understanding (not to mention some here seem to work in schools with very deep pockets, IMO skewing their views on certain subjects). I can see why so many schools & their staff are treated so disrespectfully. Btw I'm no tie-dyed hippy chanting about how all students are luminous creatures who need to have classrooms made of rainbows to learn effectively nor am I an objectivist who wants to reduce all human endeavors to tidy charts and dry power point presentations. I'm right in the middle which obviously confuses those who live on the extremes, so I'm bowing out of this conversation.
Last edited by Lije Baley; 11-16-2011 at 09:51 PM..
If you have experience teaching a subject you have a degree in, then chime in. I was under the impression you didn't have a stand along degree besides ed.
I know that my chemical engineering degree adds to my ability to teach. I can compare what I was like when I'd had the number of chem classes allowed in an ed major and what I have now. I'll admit I don't need all 87 credits but I was 60 credits in before what I teach really started to make sense. The deeper you go the more you see how things tie together. My students see that. They know they can ask me questions and there's a 99% chance I can answer them and take them deeper.
Yesterday and today were really good days. Yesterday I had two students put things together in a profound (for high school students) way when I asked a particular question. Today, I overheard a student saying "I thought I was going to hate chemistry but I really like this class". Last week my co teacher, who has been at this for 20 years, was gushing about the way I taught writing/balancing equations. She says she's never seen it done that way and just had to tell me how great she thought it was. Last year, I was observed teaching the Mole, by an administrator who used to teach science. He told me he'd never heard it taught that way before or seen kids get it so fast. My first and second year teaching saw a 30% and then and additional 5% increase in kids passing the state exams over the teacher before me AND the one who replaced me (sadly, when I left the scores dropped). THAT is what I can do with my content knowledge. When you, truely, understand something, you can teach it six different ways and backwards if you need to. You can learn classroom management but you can't fake understanding.
I still am trying to understand how what you are saying can be helpful for an elementary school teacher, who has to teach science AND math AND history AND reading.
Link to where THF wants to see public education abolished?
I don't care about CEO's or private company execs because my tax dollars do not pay their salary.
If I don't like what Rupert Murdoch makes then I don't have to buy any of his papers.
On the other hand, you have to make the job attractive enough to hire quality teachers. Otherwise, teachers would stay in the private sector, and wouldn't teach.
Can we all agree that effective teaching is in the best interests of the public?
I still am trying to understand how what you are saying can be helpful for an elementary school teacher, who has to teach science AND math AND history AND reading.
Who's talking about elementary school? It's been said, repeatedly, and has been implied throughout this discussion, that there is value in knowing your subject well beyond the level you teach. I would HOPE that elementary teacher know their subjects well beyond what they teach. There's something really wrong if they don't. Unfortunately, I've met some who don't. I've met elementary teachers who misspell words, use incorrect grammar and have explained scientific ideas wrong. (The sky is NOT blue because it reflects the oceans people...) While an elementary school teacher doesn't need a degree in everything he teaches, he needs to demonstrate an ability to correctly EXPLAIN any concept he will be called upon to teach.
On the other hand, you have to make the job attractive enough to hire quality teachers. Otherwise, teachers would stay in the private sector, and wouldn't teach.
Can we all agree that effective teaching is in the best interests of the public?
This is the crux of the problem. If you don't pay teachers well, who will teach? Not all of us can afford to have jobs we can't support a family on. I can't. As a result, next year will be my last year teaching. I cannot both teach and put my kids through college so when dd#1 goes off to college, I go off to a job with a real paycheck.
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