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Old 05-27-2012, 07:37 AM
 
Location: Suburbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Only if they all elementary teachers are paid more. Male teachers do the same job female teachers do. Gender, while it may be preferred, doesn't deliver a different product.
Of course. So we can't just go with the supply and demand theory. So going back to subject taught, I have a difficult time weighing one against another. Does a 6th grade math teacher deserve more pay than a 3rd grade math teacher? Should an elementary language teacher teaching 2nd grade math and science in French get paid more than her counterpart teaching in English? You couldn't pay me enough to teach kindergarten.
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Old 05-27-2012, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,466,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgbwc View Post
Of course. So we can't just go with the supply and demand theory. So going back to subject taught, I have a difficult time weighing one against another. Does a 6th grade math teacher deserve more pay than a 3rd grade math teacher? Should an elementary language teacher teaching 2nd grade math and science in French get paid more than her counterpart teaching in English? You couldn't pay me enough to teach kindergarten.
Yes you can. You don't NEED male teachers over female teachers so you can't apply this to gender. You do NEED math and science teachers so if there is a shortage you would pay more to encourage them to leave industry to teach. You compared a preference to a need and tried to call them equal. They're not.

Whether the 6th grade teacher (IMO, middle school deserves hazard pay) should be paid more depends on how hard it is to get a middle school teacher over an elementary school teacher. Supply and demand (not preference) would determine price. So no, you can't pay the male teacher more than the female teacher doing the same job just as you wouldn't pay a math teacher doing the same job as another math teacher more but if you can't get a math teacher because they're in short supply, you pay what you have to.

Whether a subject is worth more depends on whether you need to entice people to come out of industry to teach it. If you don't think you do or you think anyone can teach the subject, then you wouldn't pay more for it. As long as there are people willing to work for cheap, you don't have a problem.
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Old 05-27-2012, 12:31 PM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
It would actually depend on the requirements to teach subjects.

At one point in time, Michigan decided that they wanted single subject certs to teach chemistry, biology and physics. Then they realized that with chem for all, they were headed towards a chemistry teacher shortage and blessed the DI cert (originally intended to teach middle school so it's not rigorous (jack of all trades cert)) to teach chemistry, phsics and biology and created a glut of science teachers. So, we're a dime a dozen and those of us with the higher certs are actually the undesirables because, unlike our counterparts with DI's, we can't teach everything. Only the stuff we're considered subject matter experts.

Demand would determine price. Right now, we're running subject matter experts out of education in favor of people holding general certs so you're not going to see anyone paying more for particular certs except for foriegn language. Try finding a German teacher.

If special ed is in high demand, and it is, it will pay more, and it does. In spite of my value in the open market, chemistry/physics/math doesn't pay more because they don't need to pay more to fill the positions.

If you want subject matter experts in the classroom, you'll have to compete with industry but they don't so they don't. The general consensus is that a teacher who is interesting beats one who actually knows their material. Which explains why the first thing I learned in college was not to repeat anything I was taught in high school because half of it was wrong.
I have NEVER been paid a premium for being a SpEd teacher. Most districts have a scale that pays by steps. Even in a charter dump I was paid LESS than many GenEd teachers.
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Old 05-27-2012, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
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Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
I have NEVER been paid a premium for being a SpEd teacher. Most districts have a scale that pays by steps. Even in a charter dump I was paid LESS than many GenEd teachers.
If memory serves me correctly, you were able to negotiate a higher salary in the charter dump because you were special ed. Of course that's higher than their usual dismal pay.
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17 View Post
I've often heard this idea proposed before, with it suggested that teachers be paid based on the subject they teach (either the subject's supposed inherent difficulty or how hard the position is to fill). With all of the talk of reforming teacher compensation, does this idea make sense?
Definitely. And also, they should not require college degrees for those who teach 6th grade and below, unless they are going to be special ed teachers... in which case they should have some sort of degree appropriate to the challenges. Instead of a degree, elementary grade teachers should have to produce SAT scores in the above average or pass a stringent knowledge certification test.

People don't need a college degree to teach arithmetic to 3rd graders.

In fact, I think about half the degree programs out there.... being used to saddle kids with 5 figure loan obligations for a career that pays truck driver wages... should be eliminated.
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Old 05-28-2012, 05:56 AM
 
Location: A coal patch in Pennsyltucky
10,325 posts, read 10,581,616 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin View Post
Definitely. And also, they should not require college degrees for those who teach 6th grade and below, unless they are going to be special ed teachers... in which case they should have some sort of degree appropriate to the challenges. Instead of a degree, elementary grade teachers should have to produce SAT scores in the above average or pass a stringent knowledge certification test.

People don't need a college degree to teach arithmetic to 3rd graders.

In fact, I think about half the degree programs out there.... being used to saddle kids with 5 figure loan obligations for a career that pays truck driver wages... should be eliminated.
The college process is not perfect, but it does a lot more than what it appears to you. I have seen quite a few student teachers over the past couple years and many of them are not cut out to be teachers. They made it through 3.5 years of college thinking they wanted to teach and found out it just wasn't for them. The process helps to weed people out who are not cut out for a teaching career. Since there is an over supply of certified teachers, they should raise the standards instead of lower them.
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
The college process is not perfect, but it does a lot more than what it appears to you. I have seen quite a few student teachers over the past couple years and many of them are not cut out to be teachers. They made it through 3.5 years of college thinking they wanted to teach and found out it just wasn't for them. The process helps to weed people out who are not cut out for a teaching career. Since there is an over supply of certified teachers, they should raise the standards instead of lower them.
No, I what I said was, it isn't necessary. I mean, hell, I could create a bachelors degree program for people who make hamburgers for a living. But it isn't necessary. Neither is a 4 year degree necessary to teach elementary school kids how to read and do arithmetic.

Sorry. But that's the way it is. And I say that having two masters degrees of my own, married to another teacher with a bachelors plus two and 21 years of experience herself. And she agrees with me.

The average housewife homeschooler with a diploma can do a perfectly adequate job, and they do it all the time.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Suburbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhassel View Post
Hi all,

Teacher should be compensated according to there teaching skill's not upon the subject. We can't make differences between two subject. Each teacher having same responsibility so who does better should get more than other. By doing so there will be a chance for every teacher to perform good.
I guess your teacher better pay up.
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:49 AM
 
Location: A coal patch in Pennsyltucky
10,325 posts, read 10,581,616 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin View Post
No, I what I said was, it isn't necessary. I mean, hell, I could create a bachelors degree program for people who make hamburgers for a living. But it isn't necessary. Neither is a 4 year degree necessary to teach elementary school kids how to read and do arithmetic.

Sorry. But that's the way it is. And I say that having two masters degrees of my own, married to another teacher with a bachelors plus two and 21 years of experience herself. And she agrees with me.

The average housewife homeschooler with a diploma can do a perfectly adequate job, and they do it all the time.
It doesn't matter if it is not necessary. First we have an over supply of certified teachers. Why would you hire a non-certified person or a person without a degree over a certified teacher?

Have you ever hired someone? If not, here is the process. You start with a pile of resumes and decide which ones you will contact for an interview. You set some kind of minimum qualification based on education and experience since you don't have time to interview everyone. So if I am hiring an elementary teacher, and I was allowed to hire somone without a teaching certificate, how would I know this person without a degree has any experince teaching elementary kids how to read and arithmetic?
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:54 AM
 
Location: St Louis, MO
4,677 posts, read 5,752,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
It doesn't matter if it is not necessary. First we have an over supply of certified teachers. Why would you hire a non-certified person or a person without a degree over a certified teacher?
We do? As I mentioned, a whole three certified teachers applied for my wife's now vacant position. (Apparently a whole lot more non-certified people, but those were the only certified people.) Only one of them had any previous teaching experience.
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