Should Teachers Be Compensated Based on Subject Taught? (degrees, educator, complain)

[greenvillebuckeye]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I can't handle not being able to do this job to the standard I was hired to do it. It's just lip service. If I ever found a school that, truely, wanted to raise the bar and take kids to new heights (I don't care what level I'm teaching. I can do this for special ed kids or the highest college bound as long as you don't expect me to teach both in the same class.), I'd be happy teaching. I went through engineering and then Ed school with a woman who has the same credentials I do (and pretty much the same personality). She got into a college prep private school and is loving teaching. My kids never stay after school for help. She can't get hers to leave.

education has become so politicized (probably since the 80s and that book - A Nation at Risk) that voters want a strong educational system but are not willing to put in for the long haul that that would entail. American's want results and fast. Engineering and building a toyota or a honda or a ford takes less time than a child (18 plus years or more by my count last). People forget this and it causes issues in education to develop like grade inflation that you're referring to. Grade inflation masks the issue by making it seem like things are going well so as to appease the voters when in reality the long term negatives of grade inflation will be felt down the road. but again as i already alluded to, people, communities, voters want immediate results. education doesn't get immediate results, especially not nationally when you consider each state is given leeway towards determining their own standards and expectations.

educators both fresh 20 somethings out of college and seasoned private sector teachers new to the profession jump in with a ton of idealism of what can be and seek that (which is good mind you) but are hit with what is a very harsh reality. they fight it and fight it and soon tragically give in or give up.

myself i probably have given in (sold my soul haha) more than given up. I figure at least if I give in I can chip away slowly over the next 20 - 25 years slowly rather than give up and have no ability to do anything change wise.

[scocar]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I, definitely, am into my subject area but I don't expect all students to be. I just don't get why I have students failing. Homework is 10% of the grade and pretty much a given 100% because I just want them to try and then correct their answers before they turn it in. Quizzes are 15% but students can resubmit quizzes for 50% of missed credit. Ditto with labs. You have to try to get less than 80% on labs but can redo them if you don't. That means you can pass my class getting scores in the high 40's on tests.

What bugs me is that 16 year olds don't take safety seriously. For example, I do not allow eating in the lab. They're still arguing with me on this one. They're not supposed to be eating in any class yet I write up 3 or 4 a week for chowing down in the room (which is our lab so there is just no eating in class). They act like there is something wrong with me.

I think I know what you're mistaking as high strung. The HARDEST transition I've had to make to teaching is lack of respect. For 20 years I worked in a field where respect for me and what I do was automatic. Neither students or parents respect teachers and the public openly disses us. If I knew no different, this, probably wouldn't bother me but I do know different. I know what it's like to have everyone assume I'm competent and will do my job. I know what it's like to have others think that what I know is worth learning. I admit to having a hard time with the open disrespect students show to me and not being valued by the school. You'd, probably, assume I'm high strung too but I just don't know how to respond to open disrespect. I've never had to deal with it before. If I'd talked to my teachers the way kids talk to me, I'd have had my mouth washed out with soap.

I went into teaching to raise the bar but I'm finding that what they really want is teachers who can play limbo. All that matters is getting the bottom of the class to pass. For that, you don't need someone with my credentials. I'm worth more in industry. Especially since I see what's coming up. I have a feeling they're going to be begging the baby boomers to stay in the work force.

I'm glad I did some time in teaching though because now I know that it's not worth pouring more money into the profession. I used to think that if we paid teachers well we'd have a good education system but I no longer think that. You don't need subject matter experts as long as your focus is passing the bottom of the class and that being the case, maximum pay should be about half of what it is in the state of Michigan. Pay should be comparable with what the person can make in industry. While that would be a lot for science teachers, you don't really need someone who knows science to teach it the way it need to be taught today except your AP and honors teachers. I hate having to dummy down the material (I'm comparing to what I was taught in high school here not college.) but that's what I have to do to get the bottom of the class to pass BUT I'm supposed to call my class Honors chemistry. Ugh. I have a hard time speaking with a forked tongue. I know I'm not teaching to the level I was taught in high school yet I'm supposed to say I'm raising the bar. What they want is for people to think we're raising the bar while we lower it so more kids will pass the test. I feel like we're flushing our best and brightest. We slow down the entire class to pull along the bottom. A bottom that puts in very little effort and expects teachers to curve so they pass...I'm amazed that kids in high school ask about curving. I've tried to write tests all my students can pass. When I do, 40% of my students get A's. Seriosly, we need to get back to a tracked system and just accept that some kids are going to fight learning every step of the way.

As to my teaching ability, I've been told dozens of times by people I taught things to that I can teach anything to anyone. When I was an engineering student, I was a favorite tutor. My team teacher tells me that she's been co teaching this course for several years and this is the first time she's understood it. She's collecting things I do because I won't be co teaching with her next year so she can pass them on to other teachers. I can teach. What I can't do is make kids who don't want to learn want to learn. I'm thinking I'm just going to wait until education implodes and it will. The problems run too deep and you can't fix them with subject matter experts. You're just wasting their talent. I do have a new appreciation for why companies shop abroad for higher talent and why our government encourages foriegners to study here and gives incentives to stay. As things are now, we're not capable of growing our own talent in any numbers. I have quit complaining about companies not hiring Americans. I understand all too well.

I don't ever expect that kids will treat me with respect because I'm a teacher. Kids are too immature to understand authority from an issue of respect. At a young age kids tow the line and "respect" their teachers because they are told to do so or they are afraid of the consequences. They aren't respecting the position. I earn the students respect by being consistent, fair, and showing them that I care. Students can never accuse me of playing favorites, because I don't. I don't complain about "the kids today" to them, because that just turns them against me.

As for respect from administration or the public, I've never seen that as a problem. The public respects the person, much more than the position. This comes across in pretty much every walk of life. Ask someone from the Tea Party how much they respect our current president. I've found that if I conduct myself with professionalism and I can justify my decision making, then I will properly earn the respect from my administrators and the public. That doesn't mean that ALL administrators or ALL parents will respect me. But the vast majority do.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by scocar

I don't ever expect that kids will treat me with respect because I'm a teacher. Kids are too immature to understand authority from an issue of respect. At a young age kids tow the line and "respect" their teachers because they are told to do so or they are afraid of the consequences. They aren't respecting the position. I earn the students respect by being consistent, fair, and showing them that I care. Students can never accuse me of playing favorites, because I don't. I don't complain about "the kids today" to them, because that just turns them against me.

As for respect from administration or the public, I've never seen that as a problem. The public respects the person, much more than the position. This comes across in pretty much every walk of life. Ask someone from the Tea Party how much they respect our current president. I've found that if I conduct myself with professionalism and I can justify my decision making, then I will properly earn the respect from my administrators and the public. That doesn't mean that ALL administrators or ALL parents will respect me. But the vast majority do.

I am comparing how the public treats me as an engineer to how the public treats me as a teacher. As I said, if I'd never known professional respect I might not have even noticed but I have and I do notice. There is a HUGE difference in how I was treated as an engineer and how I'm treated as a teacher. By comparison, I am, openly, disrespected as a teacher.

As to students, I do struggle with the open disrespect they have for teachers. I would have had my mouth washed out with soap if I'd dared talk to or about teachers the way they do. I have, simply, never had any practice dealing with open disrespect. I've never delivered it (I would have been knocked into tomorrow by my parents) and I've never been on the receiving end until now. This was one thing I was not prepared for.

As an engineer, I worked with kids on projects like Lego Robotics and was always treated with respect by them. As a teacher, it's like I'm the enemy.

[jasper12]

Sure. I would be good with that...how much is a teacher who knows ASL, Signed English, Braille, can teach Deaf, blind, deaf-blind, with an endorsement in Autism, and severe multiply impaired children be worth? After all...math and science teachers are a dime a dozen....

[marigolds6]

One of the issues with paying by subject taught is that you get into substitutability of credentials.

Realistically, elementary teachers would get paid the least, since there are such a wide range of credentials that can allow teaching K-6. Since music was mentioned earlier... string teachers for string orchestra are extremely rare. They still would get paid very little though because band and choir teachers are numerous and their credentials allow them to teach string orchestra. I have mentioned before how there is pretty much no such thing as a geographer teaching geography. Wouldn't matter, all social science credentials allow a teacher to teach geography.

And that is where the lobbying comes in... if you can get the state to restrict eligible credentials for your field, you can up your pay dramatically. Are school districts paying out too much for physics teachers? Make physics a K-12 credential class. As long the subject does not matter for standardized tests for school accreditation, it will not matter who teaches it. Do us history teachers want more pay? Lobby for a us history specific and/or grade specific authorizations to be added to credentials (i.e. if you want to teach 10th grade us history, you need a history credential with a 10th grade history and a us history authorization...)

[robabeatle]

to answer the OP:

yes

[Coldjensens]

I think this is a good idea, but not on some fixed formula by subject. The pay should be based on the need just like in other businesses. If Science and Math teachers get paid more, you woudl see more of them. When there is a glut of science and math teachers, the pay scale should change until there are enough speech, music and englsh teachers.

Math and science may or may not be harder, but for most people they are certianly more boring subjects to learn and to teach (more so math than science). If I can get paid tha same as an English teacher as I can as a math teacher, am I going to stare at numbers and memorize forumlas for four years, or read novels?

If being a lawyer or a doctor did nto pay so well, would many people go into it? Not likely. Everyone would be an animal companion therapist or a musician, or an author.

That is not a tough choice.

[lkb0714]

Originally Posted by Coldjensens

I think this is a good idea, but not on some fixed formula by subject. The pay should be based on the need just like in other businesses. If Science and Math teachers get paid more, you woudl see more of them. When there is a glut of science and math teachers, the pay scale should change until there are enough speech, music and englsh teachers.

Math and science may or may not be harder, but for most people they are certianly more boring subjects to learn and to teach (more so math than science). If I can get paid tha same as an English teacher as I can as a math teacher, am I going to stare at numbers and memorize forumlas for four years, or read novels?

If being a lawyer or a doctor did nto pay so well, would many people go into it? Not likely. Everyone would be an animal companion therapist or a musician, or an author.

That is not a tough choice.

Many, many people love math and science far more than novels or animal therapy.

[scocar]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I am comparing how the public treats me as an engineer to how the public treats me as a teacher. As I said, if I'd never known professional respect I might not have even noticed but I have and I do notice. There is a HUGE difference in how I was treated as an engineer and how I'm treated as a teacher. By comparison, I am, openly, disrespected as a teacher.

As to students, I do struggle with the open disrespect they have for teachers. I would have had my mouth washed out with soap if I'd dared talk to or about teachers the way they do. I have, simply, never had any practice dealing with open disrespect. I've never delivered it (I would have been knocked into tomorrow by my parents) and I've never been on the receiving end until now. This was one thing I was not prepared for.

As an engineer, I worked with kids on projects like Lego Robotics and was always treated with respect by them. As a teacher, it's like I'm the enemy.

This is an interesting topic. When you say how the "public treats you" what are you referring to? Most of my contact with the public, as a teacher, was with parents. I've had parents disagree with me on things, but I didn't necessarily feel disrespected by them.

If you are referring to the public's general perception of the teaching profession, then I would say that is pretty much a conservative political deal. The conservative sheep are taught by their shepherds (i.e. Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, et al) that all teachers, by their association with a public union, are lazy and incompetent. They also blame college academia for spreading the "disease" of liberalism. So from about 1/2 the country teachers are going to garner the same respect as our president gets.

[scocar]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

As an engineer, I worked with kids on projects like Lego Robotics and was always treated with respect by them. As a teacher, it's like I'm the enemy.

Were you "grading" the kids working on the robotic projects? Another thing to understand is that the kids working on lego robotics were probably doing so out of choice. There is a big difference there.