Motivating students who don't want to be there (valid, college, teacher)

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by HappyTexan

You have to approach this as everyday is a new day, a clean slate.
Whatever the kids did yesterday is over. Don't hold a grudge and don't dwell on it.
You win over more kids like that. There are those you don't but it's worth the effort because all you need to do is win one over at a time.

I only had one kid that continually showed disrespect for me as a teacher by continually cursing me out in front of the class.
Suspension, ISS, detention..nothing worked. I grit my teeth and did that "everyday is a new day". But alas it didn't work with him.
He got removed from the class when he got physical (not me but broke a table in the room).

I've tried that approach but it seems, each year, I have a few students who figure that out and abuse it. This is actually my nature. I'm usually amazed that people are still holding on to something said done a week ago. That's yesterday's news. I'm not one to hold a grudge, or even remember what was said/done yesterday. I wear my emotions on my shirt sleeve. I vent and I'm done. It's repeated offenses that get to me. When it becomes habit.

The student I struggle the most with is the one who knows that it is I who will get into trouble if I keep sending them to the office. I had three in the same class this past year (and was downgraded on my PR for overuse of sending kids to the office and ISS, as they knew I would be. Other teachers just rolled their eyes when I named the three.). It was the class from hell. When two of the three were absent, the other students would come to me after class and point out that they weren't here and class was pleasant.

Being cussed out isn't an issue. That's only happened a few times and it was dealt with by the office except once when I was informed, by mom, that her son has anger management issues and I'd better stop making him mad. My upper students, I dont have an issue with. They respect my position and experience. It's the kids who are being made to take chemistry who never would have taken it given a choice I have issues with. They walk in on day one with an attitude.

I did seek advice from some of my higher students last year. Interestingly, their number one suggestion was that I need to have more quizzes and give pop quizzes. I thought that was interesting but it kind of makes sense. Perhaps I'm giving them a false sense of security by putting too much time between when something is taugh/assigned and tested. Idle hands are the devils worhshop. I'm coming in hard and fast next year. I'll hammer them to the floor from day one. It's my last year teaching either way as my current PR pretty much assures I'll be fired. I was downgraded for overuse of the office and having 23/141 kids not pass the science section of the MME. I don't see either changing this year as sending kids to the office is all I can really do when they're being disrespectful and disruptive and I don't have much control over pulling up the bottom so they will pass the MME. I am but one science teacher in a long line of science teachers.

The decision I have to make is whether I want to do what they want (not what they say but what they want) and teach to the bottom of the class while claiming to teach an honors level chemistry class or just say screw it and go out with a bang. Teach this year like I know I should and not care about the outfall on my PR because it will be my last anyway. Seriously, when I look at the material I didn't get to last year, I wouldn't call my class honors chemistry by any stretch. It's taking too much time to pull the bottom of the class through. If I wan to get rid of the complaints that I am too much of a stickler to a timeline, I'd have to teach even less. Seriously, honors chemistry paces as it paces. IMO, if the student can't keep up, the student doesn't belong in honors chemistry. They want me to say my class is an honors level class BUT really teach to the bottom of the class. They want me to claim we're pole vaulting when we're really doing the limbo.

[wyolady]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

Sigh...respect is earned by proving yourself. Through accomplishment. It is not owed to us. You don't get it just for breathing. You have to accomplish something to earn it. No, I do not hold my students in high esteem...no I do not defer to their judgement...because they are still learning.

You do know this is just your opinion, right?!? You realize most human beings disagree with your viewpoint on this? Doesn't make you wrong, you just state it like it is fact and I wasn't sure if you knew that most professionals in the classroom will disagree with this. I guess I would also ask "How is that working for you?"

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

Here's the definition of respect

"1.
a particular, detail, or point (usually preceded by in ): to differ in some respect.
2. relation or reference: inquiries with respect to a route.

3. esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability: I have great respect for her judgment.

4. deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something considered to have certain rights or privileges; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment: respect for a suspect's right to counsel; to show respect for the flag; respect for the elderly.

5. the condition of being esteemed or honored: to be held in respect."

If your sense of worth comes only from what you do and not from your personal qualities, then I guess I do understand why you believe people don't deserve respect simply for being a human being. But I have to admit, I feel very sorry for you if you believe your worth comes from what you do and achieve and not from who you are.

[wyolady]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I've tried that approach but it seems, each year, I have a few students who figure that out and abuse it.

A few students are controlling what you do in your classroom? I certainly wouldn't give away my power to a few students.

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I did seek advice from some of my higher students last year. Interestingly, their number one suggestion was that I need to have more quizzes and give pop quizzes. I thought that was interesting but it kind of makes sense. Perhaps I'm giving them a false sense of security by putting too much time between when something is taugh/assigned and tested. Idle hands are the devils worhshop. I'm coming in hard and fast next year. I'll hammer them to the floor from day one.

Gosh, I bet your students just can't wait to have you in class. (and yes, this is sarcasm).

Again, let us know how this works out for ya

[strawflower]

Originally Posted by wyolady

You do know this is just your opinion, right?!? You realize most human beings disagree with your viewpoint on this? Doesn't make you wrong, you just state it like it is fact and I wasn't sure if you knew that most professionals in the classroom will disagree with this. I guess I would also ask "How is that working for you?"


If your sense of worth comes only from what you do and not from your personal qualities, then I guess I do understand why you believe people don't deserve respect simply for being a human being. But I have to admit, I feel very sorry for you if you believe your worth comes from what you do and achieve and not from who you are.

The idea that self-esteem and respect should come SOLELY from one's accomplishments is a dangerous line of thinking. I know many people whose entire identities are wrapped up in what they do and what they've accomplished that I have to wonder what they're going to do if they can no longer "perform" or "deliver"...YKWIM? Their self-worth is so extrinsically powered and that's not a good thing, IMO. One's successes or failures should not define them.

And "how is that working for you?" is a great question. Your "students are not worthy of respect" line of thinking doesn't seem as if it's working well in the classroom. Why not try something new?

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by strawflower

The idea that self-esteem and respect should come SOLELY from one's accomplishments is a dangerous line of thinking. I know many people whose entire identities are wrapped up in what they do and what they've accomplished that I have to wonder what they're going to do if they can no longer "perform" or "deliver"...YKWIM? Their self-worth is so extrinsically powered and that's not a good thing, IMO. One's successes or failures should not define them.

And "how is that working for you?" is a great question. Your "students are not worthy of respect" line of thinking doesn't seem as if it's working well in the classroom. Why not try something new?

No, the dangererous line of thinking is that self esteem and respect are just owed to you. LIFE does not deliver them unless you deliver. You are held in esteem when you've actually done something. Your opinion is deferred to when you've shown you've developed expertise. You are placed in a position of privlidge when you earn it. These are not things kids should be conditioned to believe are just handed to them unless your father happens to be the king. Few of us are born into positions that are to be honored. Most of us have to earn that right.

My students haven't yet earned an esteemed position. Therefore I do not defer to their judgement. They defer to mine. Mine is the esteemed position. That's why I stand in front of the room while they take a seat and learn. If they were the esteemed ones, I'd be seated while they taught me.

True self esteem is built on ability. You can think as highly of yourself as you wish but if you don't actually do something, no one else will and your bubble will burst. Seriously, if you want to see self esteem in action, come to dd's advanced Yamaha class. Everyone of those kids worked to get where they are and it shows. And yes, I respect them. They are above me when it comes to their music. I would gladly sit and allow any of them to tutor me in keyboard. They have earned respect. Interestingly, the one person they don't expect it from is their teacher. It is they who respect her and her abilities.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifesty...f-esteem_x.htm

[maciesmom]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

No, the dangererous line of thinking is that self esteem and respect are just owed to you. LIFE does not deliver them unless you deliver. You are held in esteem when you've actually done something. Your opinion is deferred to when you've shown you've developed expertise. You are placed in a position of privlidge when you earn it. These are not things kids should be conditioned to believe are just handed to them unless your father happens to be the king. Few of us are born into positions that are to be honored. Most of us have to earn that right.

My students haven't yet earned an esteemed position. Therefore I do not defer to their judgement. They defer to mine. Mine is the esteemed position. That's why I stand in front of the room while they take a seat and learn. If they were the esteemed ones, I'd be seated while they taught me.

But obviously, they AREN'T taking a seat and learning - or at least not to the extent you (and your admin?) think they should be. Or you wouldn't be here complaining about it. You don't have to hold them in high esteem, you should respect them as human beings and understand that you don't know every challenge they face. If you are so dug in the ground in your belief that you owe your students no respect and that any changes to be made should be on their part or admin's part or anyone but you (I can't help but notice you've ignored every post that suggested YOU having a positive attitude), then I doubt you'll ever be successful in teaching. I wish you the best in your job search.

[nana053]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

True self esteem is built on ability. [/url]

While it is true that self-esteem is built on ability, not having accomplished something in a particular field *yet* does not mean that you will not accomplish it. These are students they are still learning.

Respecting students because they are human beings does not mean you defer to their judgement in terms of the classroom knowledge.

However, if you want a classroom that the kids buy into, you can defer to their knowledge of themselves and how they work best.

“As a teacher I have come to the frightening conclusion that I am the decisive element in the classroom. It is my personal approach that creates the climate. It is my daily mood that makes the weather. As a teacher I possess tremendous power to make a child’s life miserable or joyous. I can be a tool of torture or an instrument of inspiration. I can humiliate or humor, hurt or heal. In all situations it is my response that decides whether a crisis will be escalated or de-escalated, and a child humanized or dehumanized.”

- Haim Ginott, Teacher and Child (1971)

Note that you probably need to discuss your expectations of the students in terms of your job and their job.

Within the required curriculum, however, students can have choices. Dividing up large lessons into smaller units can help to keep students interested and can assist in the digestion of the information. Frequent testing leads to higher achievement because small successes can build confidence. The key though is to use the tests to help students learn rather than to simply *grade* them. Students also need to have responsibilities in the classroom.

One of my son's favorite teachers often walked around when the students were working and when he saw a particularly creative solution or some particularly difficult work being done, he would *without speaking* place a small statue of The Thinker on that student's desk. All the students knew what it meant.

One of the things I learned is that you cannot lecture about misbehavior. You can, however, show kids that you value good behavior.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by nana053

While it is true that self-esteem is built on ability, not having accomplished something in a particular field *yet* does not mean that you will not accomplish it. These are students they are still learning.

Respecting students because they are human beings does not mean you defer to their judgement in terms of the classroom knowledge.

However, if you want a classroom that the kids buy into, you can defer to their knowledge of themselves and how they work best.



Note that you probably need to discuss your expectations of the students in terms of your job and their job.

Within the required curriculum, however, students can have choices. Dividing up large lessons into smaller units can help to keep students interested and can assist in the digestion of the information. Frequent testing leads to higher achievement because small successes can build confidence. The key though is to use the tests to help students learn rather than to simply *grade* them. Students also need to have responsibilities in the classroom.

One of my son's favorite teachers often walked around when the students were working and when he saw a particularly creative solution or some particularly difficult work being done, he would *without speaking* place a small statue of The Thinker on that student's desk. All the students knew what it meant.

One of the things I learned is that you cannot lecture about misbehavior. You can, however, show kids that you value good behavior.

You are mistaking common courtesy for respect. Respect is earned. Courtesy is owed. Read the definition of respect I posted earlier. It means things like to defer to because one person has more experience or ability than another or to listen to because one person has more authority than another (like police officers and teachers (well it should be anyway)). Being treated with human dignity is something different. That is owed to everyone just for breathing.

And you cannot build self esteem without accomplishment. I see kids every day struggling with the fact they think that they should have self esteem without working for it because mommy and their peer group have been telling them that since they were knee high to a grasshopper. (funny thing is even that peer group that tells them they should have self esteem won't grant respect or esteem to you until you actually do something) It is when you actually accomplish something that you earn the right to feel good about yourself and the respect of others. Atheletes and musicians (to name two) learn this young. It's a problem when kids who have done nothing (like my dd#1) think they deserve it too. Though dd#1 has started to figure that out. She is now in a school with kids who are involved so she is involved and she has found being involved to be esteem building. The better she gets, the better she feels about herself. That's the way self esteem works.

It's not about your ability. It's about what you do with it. Someone who has an IQ of 180 who does nothing with (my best friend in high school) it is held in lower esteem than someone with an IQ of 100 who runs a company, makes millions and provides jobs for many (my BIL). It's not about innate ability. It's about accomplishment. Dd's talent on the piano is meaningless without accomplishment to back it up. There even comes a point when your accomplishments are too far in the past to count today. For example, dd#2 is now 14 and the fact she first started performing publically at 6 is now meaningless. This is why I advised her not to give up high school to graduate early. She asked "Won't people be impressed that I graduated early?" and I told that 10 years from now, exactly no one will care how old she was when she graduated. Sure it's impressive when you do it but then it becomes a past accomplishment. Life judges you on your current accomplishments. That's why I'm struggling to get back into engineering. I don't have any current accomplishments.

The experiment where we tried to put the self esteem cart before the accomplishment horse is an utter failure. It just leaves the kids who never accomplish enough to gain that esteem feeling like they failed and it makes kids afraid to try. If everyone is supposed to be able to be held in esteem and I try and fail, now I'm less than them. If I never try, I can always say I could have if I'd tried. I save face.

One of the common suggestions in my exit questionaire was to have more frequent tests over less material. I'm not sure how that is going to work though given I'm already giving over 20% of my student's A's. I don't want to make my class an easy A. As things are now, I teach for two-three weeks and then test. I'm not really sure how to speed that up. Weekly tests? Introduce the topic on Monday, quiz on it on Wednesday, do the lab on Thursday and then test on Friday? Unfortunately, another suggestion was to hand back labs before the test. I'm, usually, collecting them the day before the test. Labs are part of the assessment process. Just a part when you can ask your neighbor. They would like to treat them as formative. The only problem with this is one of time. For most labs, I can only grade about 9 an hour and that isn't counting doing plagiarism checks and comparing reports between hours to make sure no one is copying. I have upwards of 100 labs to grade at one time. It's not unusual for me to pass back labs two weeks after the test on the material.

In the past, I've tried starting new material before the test, to give myself time to get things graded and handed back before the test but then students forget the old material and I find they don't worry about the new material because it's not on the next test. I'm not sure what to do here. I could go over the lab the day it's turned in but then what would I do about students turning in the labs late since they will have then had the opportunity to just copy what I did on the board. Currently, because labs are big assignments, I knock off 10% per day they are late until they are worth 50%. If I went over the labs before the test, I'd have to stop accepting late labs because students don't deserve credit for my work.

I will be giving more frequent quizzes this year and my quizzes will be larger. This was also a suggestion of my students. This one surprised me. They always groan when I announce a quiz yet they want more of them.

[wyolady]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

My students haven't yet earned an esteemed position. Therefore I do not defer to their judgement. They defer to mine. Mine is the esteemed position. That's why I stand in front of the room while they take a seat and learn. If they were the esteemed ones, I'd be seated while they taught me.
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But I would argue your position is esteemed when you have demonstrated your effectiveness as a classroom teacher. I don't personally believe your position is esteemed simply because you have the education required to get the job.

Example: let's say you have a principal who has oodles of education and his experience shows he defers to parents rather than evaluate teachers based on job performance (something I believe I've heard you share, Ivory). His position should be esteemed, shouldn't it? I don't believe you have been discourteous or disrespectful to him/her, but you've certainly shared your disgust with how he/she does the job.

Another example: many of the business moguls who in recent years (and continue to this day) swindled billions of dollars out of companies they ran, even though their companies lost money. They have oodles of education, even lots of experience and people in high positions in this country continue to make sure they stay in thei position. But their treatment of other people, performance on the job certainly shouldn't hold them in esteem....yet we do. Bank of America, MF Global, Goldman Sachs, Tyco, etc.

It doesn't matter how much education or experience you have; if you don't appear competent or caring in a public school classroom, students won't treat you like you are relevant to them. Like it or don't, it is what it is.

I've said it before: students don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Just as an experiment, try showing every student who walks through your doors care and respect and you will be surprised. It may not happen overnight, and you may never know your positive influence.

I had a student last fall with a real attitude. She came in, tried to put her feet up on the desk, crossed her arms, was blatantly disrespectful and defiant, but I NEVER let her see me sweat. I politely addressed each issue "Mary, I need you to put your feet down, Mary I need you to stop talking and start on the assignment....do you need some help? Mary, thanks so much for working diligently today." It took a long time, and it appeared that she never liked the class.

I ran into her this summer and she rushed up to me and said hi. I was startled since I thought she couldn't stand me. She told me what she had been doing over the summer, and on her way out the door, said how much she liked my class last year. My facial expression must have shown surprise, because she followed it up with "Even when I had a bad day, talked trash and tried to get your dander up, you were kind. I learned a lot too."

You have absolutely NO control over the students who will walk through your door, so complaining about and trying to change them will change nothing in your classroom.

You do, however, have control over YOU.....your demeanor, treatment of students and delivery of instruction is what you DO have control over. If we have even one excuse why we can't do our jobs well, we will never change how we do it because it can continue to be someone else's fault. This is true in any career, and in any relationship.

[lhpartridge]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

You are mistaking common courtesy for respect. Respect is earned. Courtesy is owed. Read the definition of respect I posted earlier. It means things like to defer to because one person has more experience or ability than another or to listen to because one person has more authority than another (like police officers and teachers (well it should be anyway)). Being treated with human dignity is something different. That is owed to everyone just for breathing.

And you cannot build self esteem without accomplishment. I see kids every day struggling with the fact they think that they should have self esteem without working for it because mommy and their peer group have been telling them that since they were knee high to a grasshopper. (funny thing is even that peer group that tells them they should have self esteem won't grant respect or esteem to you until you actually do something) It is when you actually accomplish something that you earn the right to feel good about yourself and the respect of others. Atheletes and musicians (to name two) learn this young. It's a problem when kids who have done nothing (like my dd#1) think they deserve it too. Though dd#1 has started to figure that out. She is now in a school with kids who are involved so she is involved and she has found being involved to be esteem building. The better she gets, the better she feels about herself. That's the way self esteem works.

It's not about your ability. It's about what you do with it. Someone who has an IQ of 180 who does nothing with (my best friend in high school) it is held in lower esteem than someone with an IQ of 100 who runs a company, makes millions and provides jobs for many (my BIL). It's not about innate ability. It's about accomplishment. Dd's talent on the piano is meaningless without accomplishment to back it up. There even comes a point when your accomplishments are too far in the past to count today. For example, dd#2 is now 14 and the fact she first started performing publically at 6 is now meaningless. This is why I advised her not to give up high school to graduate early. She asked "Won't people be impressed that I graduated early?" and I told that 10 years from now, exactly no one will care how old she was when she graduated. Sure it's impressive when you do it but then it becomes a past accomplishment. Life judges you on your current accomplishments. That's why I'm struggling to get back into engineering. I don't have any current accomplishments.

The experiment where we tried to put the self esteem cart before the accomplishment horse is an utter failure. It just leaves the kids who never accomplish enough to gain that esteem feeling like they failed and it makes kids afraid to try. If everyone is supposed to be able to be held in esteem and I try and fail, now I'm less than them. If I never try, I can always say I could have if I'd tried. I save face.

One of the common suggestions in my exit questionaire was to have more frequent tests over less material. I'm not sure how that is going to work though given I'm already giving over 20% of my student's A's. I don't want to make my class an easy A. As things are now, I teach for two-three weeks and then test. I'm not really sure how to speed that up. Weekly tests? Introduce the topic on Monday, quiz on it on Wednesday, do the lab on Thursday and then test on Friday? Unfortunately, another suggestion was to hand back labs before the test. I'm, usually, collecting them the day before the test. Labs are part of the assessment process. Just a part when you can ask your neighbor. They would like to treat them as formative. The only problem with this is one of time. For most labs, I can only grade about 9 an hour and that isn't counting doing plagiarism checks and comparing reports between hours to make sure no one is copying. I have upwards of 100 labs to grade at one time. It's not unusual for me to pass back labs two weeks after the test on the material.

In the past, I've tried starting new material before the test, to give myself time to get things graded and handed back before the test but then students forget the old material and I find they don't worry about the new material because it's not on the next test. I'm not sure what to do here. I could go over the lab the day it's turned in but then what would I do about students turning in the labs late since they will have then had the opportunity to just copy what I did on the board. Currently, because labs are big assignments, I knock off 10% per day they are late until they are worth 50%. If I went over the labs before the test, I'd have to stop accepting late labs because students don't deserve credit for my work.

I will be giving more frequent quizzes this year and my quizzes will be larger. This was also a suggestion of my students. This one surprised me. They always groan when I announce a quiz yet they want more of them.

Can you try this?

Break down your introductory unit into two parts and test the second part after you begin teaching the first lab-based unit. Break that unit down as well, giving the first test when the lab is done in class and the second test AFTER you hand back the first lab reports. Have your test review include the results from the first lab and its analysis. Try to set up a rotation that will include the final test for each unit after the lab reports have been graded and reviewed in class. It might be tricky to schedule, but if you get good results, it may be worth the extra hassle. The goal is too increase student achievement.

As for the second bold sentence, I don't see why having a lot of A's is a problem as long as they represent actual mastery of the material. I would want as many of my students as possible to get A's. Proficiency is the goal, isn't it? I've never understood why a normal curve is desirable in school. Achievement is not necessarily like intelligence, height, weight, etc. It's more like health--you want everyone as healthy as possible. We certainly don't want a bell curve for mortality!