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But it is just as important, especially at the high school level, to be able to demonstrate mastery at a designated time.
ITA! I think the solution to students wanting a better grade is making the final a bigger portion of the grade. Heck, make it all the grade.
Our, current, system pads grades rediculously. Homework points are awarded just for attempting the homework. They work out to be 15-20% of the grade. We take late work right up to the last day of the term. THEN we offer retakes on tests to get a better score. Seriously, what do grades mean anymore? They're more of a reflection of whether or not the school pads grades than the student's actual ability.
I have two kids in two different high schools. Kids have every chance to repair grades at dd#1's school. At dd#2's school, they have every chance to hang themselves with a rope of their own design. There are no late papers, no retakes on tests and homework is graded for correctness. Both of my kids have about the same GPA. Which one do you think means more?
Seriously, do colleges consider that some schools really pad grades and others are old school and you have to bust butt for a B? Both my kids have roughly the same GPA this year but one is busting her butt to get it while the other is sleeping through class.
ITA! I think the solution to students wanting a better grade is making the final a bigger portion of the grade. Heck, make it all the grade.
Why would a test be an entire grade? Silly at best and ignorant of the fact that almost no subject, at least the high school level can be adequately assessed by tests alone.
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Our, current, system pads grades rediculously. Homework points are awarded just for attempting the homework. They work out to be 15-20% of the grade. We take late work right up to the last day of the term. THEN we offer retakes on tests to get a better score. Seriously, what do grades mean anymore? They're more of a reflection of whether or not the school pads grades than the student's actual ability.
Than stop witching and advocate to change the grade policy. My school's grade policy didn't appear out of thin air. The teachers took the time to research and support the notion that high achievement comes from setting the bar high. The amount of research that supports this is astounding. There is nothing more buzz word education-ese right not than "data driven decision making". Give them the data to make a good decision.
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I have two kids in two different high schools. Kids have every chance to repair grades at dd#1's school. At dd#2's school, they have every chance to hang themselves with a rope of their own design. There are no late papers, no retakes on tests and homework is graded for correctness. Both of my kids have about the same GPA. Which one do you think means more?
You need to do some research of your own. Homework is not assessment. Hell, grading is not assessment. Good assessment leads to higher achievement. Grading homework is not an a good assessment because assessment is supposed to test mastery, homework is supposed to be a formative assessment and should basically be "practice". It is a basic FACT that grading formative assessments leads to rampant cheating. AND undermines the basic educational philosophy.
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Seriously, do colleges consider that some schools really pad grades and others are old school and you have to bust butt for a B? Both my kids have roughly the same GPA this year but one is busting her butt to get it while the other is sleeping through class.
Then do something about it. Parents get heard louder than anyone else when they are advocating for more challenging curriculum.
Why would a test be an entire grade? Silly at best and ignorant of the fact that almost no subject, at least the high school level can be adequately assessed by tests alone.
Than stop witching and advocate to change the grade policy. My school's grade policy didn't appear out of thin air. The teachers took the time to research and support the notion that high achievement comes from setting the bar high. The amount of research that supports this is astounding. There is nothing more buzz word education-ese right not than "data driven decision making". Give them the data to make a good decision.
You need to do some research of your own. Homework is not assessment. Hell, grading is not assessment. Good assessment leads to higher achievement. Grading homework is not an a good assessment because assessment is supposed to test mastery, homework is supposed to be a formative assessment and should basically be "practice". It is a basic FACT that grading formative assessments leads to rampant cheating. AND undermines the basic educational philosophy.
Then do something about it. Parents get heard louder than anyone else when they are advocating for more challenging curriculum.
My school's grade policy is being pushed down our throats.
As to tests being most of the grade, I can write a chemistry test or a math test that, truely, assesses your knowledge. Handing out homework points, certainly, isn't reflective of what was learned. Neither are projects, portfolios and lab reports because they don't do their own work. Seriously, the only way to assess an individuals actual ability is in a test situation. If they take it home, mom and dad or an older sibling help.
There are formative assessments and summative assessments. Obviously, since we are talking about grade assignment, we are talking about summative assessments. Formative assessments are something alltogether different and are not used for grade assignment.
Seriously, do colleges consider that some schools really pad grades and others are old school and you have to bust butt for a B? Both my kids have roughly the same GPA this year but one is busting her butt to get it while the other is sleeping through class.
That's what class rankings are for. I've sat on admittance and scholarship boards, a 3.75 with a class ranking in the 50th percent is not nearly as well received as a 3.5 with a ranking in the top 20%. Sadly, many school systems are now doing away with class ranking because (drumroll) they make some kids look better than others - meaning in the eyes of some idiots that they are "unfair." Sheesh.
That's what class rankings are for. I've sat on admittance and scholarship boards, a 3.75 with a class ranking in the 50th percent is not nearly as well received as a 3.5 with a ranking in the top 20%. Sadly, many school systems are now doing away with class ranking because (drumroll) they make some kids look better than others - meaning in the eyes of some idiots that they are "unfair." Sheesh.
You know we're working towards the day that everyone gets the average grade for the class, right? Or maybe we just give them all A's.
I have come to the conclusion that grades mean nothing anymore. With all the prep kids do, I'm not sure tests like the ACT mean much anymore either. While my school does great on the state tests, they spend a lot of time prepping and practicing for those tests. They are then compared to schools that don't have the resources to do that. Many of these programs claim to add 3-5 points to your score and that can be huge. Unfortunately, because so many do prep for the tests, prepping is now the norm. You're at a disadvantage if you don't do it. So we'll have dd#2 prep even though her school doesn't do a prep program. Might as well even the playing field.
All this parental oneupmanship has simply resulted in things now being necessary that were optional before. Used to be kids started sports in middle school so if you started your child young, your child had an advantage. Now so many parents start their children young that children who don't start young are at a disadvantage. Testing is the same. While the averages on the tests have gone up, it's because of prepping (and some of these courses are expensive) so now if you don't prep, you look worse than you are. I think we're to the point that the state needs to step in and provide prep programs for schools that can't afford them. There's too much at stake on these tests given that GPA's are becomming pretty much meaningless.
My school's grade policy is being pushed down our throats.
Then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
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As to tests being most of the grade, I can write a chemistry test or a math test that, truely, assesses your knowledge.
I have taught chemistry. I call BS.
A test cannot properly assess every skill and the fact you think chemistry is all knowledge and no skill is disturbing.
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Handing out homework points, certainly, isn't reflective of what was learned. Neither are projects, portfolios and lab reports because they don't do their own work. Seriously, the only way to assess an individuals actual ability is in a test situation. If they take it home, mom and dad or an older sibling help.
Eh, clearly this is not about solutions at this point. I taught chemistry for 6 years, it was completely possible to make sure kids don't cheat, at least not more than once.
And lets be honest most "lab reports" are really complete the worksheet and are not REAL lab reports at all.
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There are formative assessments and summative assessments. Obviously, since we are talking about grade assignment, we are talking about summative assessments. Formative assessments are something alltogether different and are not used for grade assignment.
Well homework is a formative assessment by its very definition, especially in classes like math and chemistry. So WHY are you assigning grades to formative assessments?
For the vast majority of cases you have the classroom you create. You have taught in multiple schools, in multiple subjects and you have the same problems every time. What is the common denominator?
Because I have taught in schools for the gifted, middle class schools, and Abbott districts. Managing grades, classroom, etc aren't that hard and I am not by any means a unique teacher.
A test cannot properly assess every skill and the fact you think chemistry is all knowledge and no skill is disturbing.
Eh, clearly this is not about solutions at this point. I taught chemistry for 6 years, it was completely possible to make sure kids don't cheat, at least not more than once.
And lets be honest most "lab reports" are really complete the worksheet and are not REAL lab reports at all.
Well homework is a formative assessment by its very definition, especially in classes like math and chemistry. So WHY are you assigning grades to formative assessments?
For the vast majority of cases you have the classroom you create. You have taught in multiple schools, in multiple subjects and you have the same problems every time. What is the common denominator?
Because I have taught in schools for the gifted, middle class schools, and Abbott districts. Managing grades, classroom, etc aren't that hard and I am not by any means a unique teacher.
LOL, because if I don't give them something for it, they don't do it. Sad but true.
During my first year of teaching, I used to collect things randomly to keep my grading down. One day, a student asked, as we were starting an activity, "Are you grading this?". When I said "no", I kid you not, 2/3 of the class put their pencils down. We grade homework so students will do homework but because it's not summative, the points are, literally, handed out just for having something on the paper. This amounts to about 20% of the grade. The theory is if we can entice them to do the homework, they'll do better on the quizzes and tests.
Actually, I don't have the same issues in all classes. Where did I say I do? I said that lab reports are a bear to grade and they are. I average about 4 hours of grading per class every time we do a lab. I don't do lab reports in my math classes so I don't have this problem there (I like teaching math much better because of this). I do, however, give homework points in all classes because, if I don't, they don't do the homework and I want them to do the homework. For parents and students this isn't about learning. It's about grades.
What had me over the barrel last week was the sheer amount of late work turned in as it was the last week of the term. We're required to accept late work right up to the 12th hour and expected to grade it ASAP when it's turned in because grades are on the line. I kid you not that just one class turned in a stack of papers six inches thick....and thent here were test make ups, test retakes and final exams to grade as well before final grades went out.
If you have pointers on how to make sure kids don't cheat, please share them. I spend a rediculous amount of time after each lab looking for plagiarism (my school does not pay for plagiarism checkers and the free ones are limited). Many times the plagiarism is copying work done by a student in previous years (I swear there's a black market for lab reports). For tests, I write 6 versions and use different sets every hour. Of course this means I have six different answer keys as well.
My administration will not support a teacher accusing a student of cheating unless they are caught red handed. I had a situation last year where one student had the same slight errors as another student. I knew they had cheated but my admins would not support me because I didn't catch them red handed. The only evidence I had was the almost identical errors repeated througout the test. When I confronted one student and told her that her answers were identical to another student's in the room her reply was "But WHERE does that student sit?". She knew he was across the room.
I did the only thing I could do. From that point forward, her version of the test was different than his but had the same code as his so she thought they were the same. They even came up to argue with me once because I'd marked her wrong and not him. I pointed out the differences in the questions. I never did figure out how they were cheating but I'm guessing cell phones. I have tables in my room and that makes it difficult for me to catch kids with phones.
Most weeks I can get my grading done in 12 hours. The week before last about killed me. Note I wasn't on line much this week. That's because I wasn't on my computer entering grades all the time. I got to do things like read a book. I love the first week of second semester. Nothing to grade yet. Just homework check marks. I have a small stack to grade this weekend. Next week I'll have 90 tests to grade by hand (math), 90 quizzes to grade by hand (chemistry and physical science), 48 formal lab reports (these take 15 minutes per report to read and correct and will be resubmitted for a second, final grading) and 48 informal reports (all with calculations based on the student's measurements so there is no answer key. I have to check their work.).
Do you really think I have the power to change the grading policies of my school? Seriously?
As to your calling BS on scantron tests, I'll call BS. I've taught chemistry too. Scantrons assess a student's ability to pick the right answer not to get the right answer. There is a difference. If I want to, truely, assess a student's ability, for most chemistry topics, I want a written test. Our next test is equation stoichiometry. There is no way I'd give this as a scantron test. Nor would I gas laws or colligative properties or solutions, or half reactions, or net ionic equations. Picking answers from 4 choices is very different from having to actually derive the answer yourself.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 02-01-2013 at 05:35 PM..
LOL, because if I don't give them something for it, they don't do it. Sad but true.
During my first year of teaching, I used to collect things randomly to keep my grading down. One day, a student asked, as we were starting an activity, "Are you grading this?". When I said "no", I kid you not, 2/3 of the class put their pencils down. We grade homework so students will do homework but because it's not summative, the points are, literally, handed out just for having something on the paper. This amounts to about 20% of the grade. The theory is if we can entice them to do the homework, they'll do better on the quizzes and tests.
You have classroom management problems, not assessment problems. Not getting your students to do their homework is not an assessment problem.
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Actually, I don't have the same issues in all classes. Where did I say I do? I said that lab reports are a bear to grade and they are. I average about 4 hours of grading per class every time we do a lab. I don't do lab reports in my math classes so I don't have this problem there (I like teaching math much better because of this). I do, however, give homework points in all classes because, if I don't, they don't do the homework and I want them to do the homework. For parents and students this isn't about learning. It's about grades.
Because all you do is talk about the negative aspects of teaching. No wonder everyone thinks teachers are whiners.
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What had me over the barrel last week was the sheer amount of late work turned in as it was the last week of the term. We're required to accept late work right up to the 12th hour and expected to grade it ASAP when it's turned in because grades are on the line. I kid you not that just one class turned in a stack of papers six inches thick....and thent here were test make ups, test retakes and final exams to grade as well before final grades went out.
Than advocate to change the policy. We did, both at my current school and my first one.
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If you have pointers on how to make sure kids don't cheat, please share them. I spend a rediculous amount of time after each lab looking for plagiarism (my school does not pay for plagiarism checkers and the free ones are limited). Many times the plagiarism is copying work done by a student in previous years (I swear there's a black market for lab reports). For tests, I write 6 versions and use different sets every hour. Of course this means I have six different answer keys as well.
The word is ridiculous, once is a typo, multiple times is RIDICULOUS.
Many of us have given you these tips and all you do is whinge about how it wont work in your class, why should we bother?
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My administration will not support a teacher accusing a student of cheating unless they are caught red handed. I had a situation last year where one student had the same slight errors as another student. I knew they had cheated but my admins would not support me because I didn't catch them red handed. The only evidence I had was the almost identical errors repeated througout the test. When I confronted one student and told her that her answers were identical to another student's in the room her reply was "But WHERE does that student sit?". She knew he was across the room.
Than catch them red handed. I have, once word gets out that you catch them, it stops.
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I did the only thing I could do. From that point forward, her version of the test was different than his but had the same code as his so she thought they were the same. They even came up to argue with me once because I'd marked her wrong and not him. I pointed out the differences in the questions. I never did figure out how they were cheating but I'm guessing cell phones. I have tables in my room and that makes it difficult for me to catch kids with phones.
OMG figure it out already. Make them put their phones out on their desks, put them on your desk, whatever.
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Most weeks I can get my grading done in 12 hours. The week before last about killed me. Note I wasn't on line much this week. That's because I wasn't on my computer entering grades all the time. I got to do things like read a book. I love the first week of second semester. Nothing to grade yet. Just homework check marks. I have a small stack to grade this weekend. Next week I'll have 90 tests to grade by hand (math), 90 quizzes to grade by hand (chemistry and physical science), 48 formal lab reports (these take 15 minutes per report to read and correct and will be resubmitted for a second, final grading) and 48 informal reports (all with calculations based on the student's measurements so there is no answer key. I have to check their work.).
Than get a different job, enough of this woe is me crap. We all do it.
Right now I am on lunch break from an all day practice for an academic team I coach for free. While they are running the competition, I am grading. Its the life of a teacher, all you do is whine about the negatives and never mention the positives.
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Do you really think I have the power to change the grading policies of my school? Seriously?
Yes. My department has changed the grading policy both at our school and at our district.
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As to your calling BS on scantron tests, I'll call BS. I've taught chemistry too. Scantrons assess a student's ability to pick the right answer not to get the right answer. There is a difference. If I want to, truely, assess a student's ability, for most chemistry topics, I want a written test. Our next test is equation stoichiometry. There is no way I'd give this as a scantron test. Nor would I gas laws or colligative properties or solutions, or half reactions, or net ionic equations. Picking answers from 4 choices is very different from having to actually derive the answer yourself.
LOL, you don't even read what YOU wrote let alone what I wrote. I never claimed scantrons were able to accurately assess chemistry, you were the one who claimed you can write a test that does that. The BS, is that chemistry is also a skills based course. This is why nearly every chemistry department worth its weight requires practical examinations.
Grade inflation is a major problem. I have students in my college classes who complain that I don't let them turn in late assignments and redo tests, even when missing a few problems. I tell them that if they want to ready themselves for the real world, then this is what it is all about. Your boss won't let you redo a presentation a 2nd time, won't let you file a report a 2nd time. I get it that school districts who are losing enrollment, are showing poor standardized test scores want to do whatever it takes to "show" the community that they have great students, but they are mistaken to do this at the students' expense.
I told the principal of my kids' school that I wanted to opt-out of the retake issue, so we will see what they come back with. They are good at avoiding questions, basically showing their guilt at doing stupid things. My one son had a D in math late one week, suddenly three days later he had a B. I found out that the marking period was about to close, so the teacher had him go back and redo low graded homework assignments as well as a test and cancelled out those grades and gave him new ones. He still comes home and complains that he doesn't understand the material.
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Or maybe we just give them all A's. 
