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Old 05-18-2013, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,537,397 times
Reputation: 14692

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa View Post
Administrators can be terrible, for sure, but somebody coming out of a non-education setting isn't likely to be bothered by this anymore than the reality of bad managers and higher-ups in their corporate (or whatever) previous setting. When I worked in newspapers, I worked for a publisher/owner who was every bit as much of a d-bag as bad school administrators I've known.
But in industry, others know your work. If I ever had a manager who went after me the way my current principal has, I'd be able to go around him or above him and enlist the help of people who know my work well. My PR is based on ONE observation by ONE person as a teacher and anything HE chooses to put in my evaluation. While my peers don't understand why this is happening, unlike in industry, they cannot vouch for me because they do not see me work and there are no lateral managers or upper managers who know my work I can go to. Everything is filtered through my principal that goes up.

I've been in political situations in industry and always found help outside of my department if not higher up because I had a reputation based on many people having seen the quality of my work and having interacted with me. As a teacher, unless my students were to stand up for me (unlikely given they don't even know my job is on the line), there's no one to speak for me other than the person writing my PR.

I'm stunned how things have changed. Three years ago, my PR's were being written by a man who thought I was the best thing since sliced bread. They are the opposite of what my PR's are now. A few short sentences on things I can improve followed by paragraphs of what I do right. Now I get the obligatory three positive things (very short sentences) followed by paragraphs on every little thing that went wrong douring the year blown out of proportion and taken out of context.

All I can do is write a rebuttal but that won't save my job or stop a potential employer from rescinding an offer because of a bad PR in my file. I'm not sure how you recover from something like this. I've never been in this position. The worst I had to deal with, in industry, was a manager who didn't promote women. One of the other managers, came to me and told me, off the record, that the decision to give a promotion to a man in my department over me was made solely on the fact he was about to become a father and my manager felt he needed the money. This manager promised to move me to his department and that I'd get that promotion and a year later, that is, exactly what happened. If you have a manager who can't see your value, in industry, there are others who can. Having your principal see no value in you is like having the owner of a company see no value in you. You have no recourse. All there is to do is leave but that gets hard to explain.
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Old 05-18-2013, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Middle America
37,409 posts, read 53,569,981 times
Reputation: 53073
Quote:
Originally Posted by marie5v View Post
This was simply not the case in my district. I also participated in a few hirings, and age simply didn't matter. Discrimination was mainly against women with small children. A 50-something with grown kids and a lot of experience was very desirable.
A lot of teaching experience, sure. But a newly minted teacher in his or her fifties got ZERO professional respect at any of the districts with which I've been involved. Now, in a private setting, I've been in on the discussions where older candidates have been picked over, even with great credentials, because "they won't relate as well." It bares mentioning that the oldest person on the hiring team at my place of employment is me, at 35. By far. One member of the team flippantly referred to an older interviewee as "Oh, her? My great aunt Clara? Nah," when discussing a recent round of interviews.
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Old 05-18-2013, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Middle America
37,409 posts, read 53,569,981 times
Reputation: 53073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Maybe it's time to get a lawyer. I may or may not win but I've got nothing to lose.
Do it. My dad did when he was discriminated against by his district due to age. The judge ruled in his favor, the first time that such a suit has ever been successfully fought in that district. But he had loads and loads and loads of documentation supporting his being targeted and harassed, because he knew that was the card that was gonna get played. He then quit, ran for and got elected to the board, and the superintendent that discriminated against him? Now answers to him. Hee.

If someone is unethically targeting you, fight it.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,537,397 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa View Post
Do it. My dad did when he was discriminated against by his district due to age. The judge ruled in his favor, the first time that such a suit has ever been successfully fought in that district. But he had loads and loads and loads of documentation supporting his being targeted and harassed, because he knew that was the card that was gonna get played. He then quit, ran for and got elected to the board, and the superintendent that discriminated against him? Now answers to him. Hee.

If someone is unethically targeting you, fight it.
I can't figure out why I'm being targeted. I can tell you this, if I am still in this district next year (I am doing everything I can to find another job but my kids have to eat (seriously, I have no desire to work for someone who can see nothing good in me.). My principal has made it clear that he will start the process to stop me from tenuring next school year if I'm still around. He's hoping I'll find another job and just go away.), I will document EVERYTHING. I wish I had done more documentation this year. I have some but I don't know if it's enough to show discrimination. My principal tried and failed to show that the kids in my classes perform more poorly than the kids in other classes. The $20,000 question is will a jury side with a teacher in a day and age when we're public enemy #1 and people think it's so hard to get rid of us that you MUST be just awful to be targeted the way I am being targeted.

I'm fast approaching lawyer time. If I can get a lawer to take my case with pay contingent on winning, I've got nothing to lose. Either way, I will see a lawyer as soon as I'm out of this job. We'll see if they think I have a case or not.
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Old 05-18-2013, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,537,397 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa View Post
A lot of teaching experience, sure. But a newly minted teacher in his or her fifties got ZERO professional respect at any of the districts with which I've been involved. Now, in a private setting, I've been in on the discussions where older candidates have been picked over, even with great credentials, because "they won't relate as well." It bares mentioning that the oldest person on the hiring team at my place of employment is me, at 35. By far. One member of the team flippantly referred to an older interviewee as "Oh, her? My great aunt Clara? Nah," when discussing a recent round of interviews.
This has been my experience as well. My years as an engineer seem to count for nothing yet I learned a lot about work ethic, working with peers and know how the stuff we're teaching relates to the real world. I know it's not teaching experience but I feel that I have more to offer than the average teacher with my years of experience because of my industrail expeience.
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Old 05-18-2013, 05:55 PM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,088 posts, read 29,219,613 times
Reputation: 7812
Quote:
Originally Posted by marie5v View Post
He's 46, not 66. 46 is pretty young actually. In my area, his age would not matter at all. And men are considered a "critical need" in elementary, so he would have preference over all the 20-something females. On the other hand, many principals would probably find him intimidating - they like to push people around and they don't like to be questioned, so if there was going to be discrimination it would be because of that. They might see a middle-aged man as a threat.
I am 50ish and have been on nearly 100 interviews. The only 3 places to offer me a position were ones that had been vacant for nearly 5 months.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Northern Virginia
4,489 posts, read 10,945,482 times
Reputation: 3699
OP, I made a similar change. I have a degree in business and was miserable working for one of the big name consulting firms in DC, doing systems implementation work. M-I-S-E-R-A-B-L-E. 70+ hour weeks, canceled vacations, stressed so badly I had anxiety attacks in the parking lot in the morning before work, etc. I now teach 8th grade algebra, and while some parts are still rough (still long hours, still demanding clients (they're just parents instead of government agencies)), it's 1000000x better than it was before. I come home with funny stories, and every day there is SOMETHING that makes me smile. Yes, parts are stressful. Yes, some of the parents suck. The tests are obnoxious, the non-teaching requirements are frustrating.

The real downside? I get paid diddly squat. There haven't been pay raises for years, and likely won't be in the future. I am fortunate that a) my husband wanted to stay in consulting and make the good money, and b) I have no desire to have children of my own, so I didn't have to worry about saving for college. It's also tough for me to live in such a status oriented area (DC), where everyone's first question is, "What do you do?" (i.e. are you useful to me in some way?). I've definitely felt snubbed compared to when I had my former job.

I became a teacher by getting a masters of education. 2 years of night/weekend classes, and I was licensed in secondary math education. Other members of my cohort went for elementary degrees. Virginia actually has a career switcher program, but I'm glad I didn't do it--my student teaching and class discussions were invaluable in making me a better teacher.

I have good days and bad days now. Days where I love life, and days where I wish I had never switched. At the end of the day though, I think I'm in the right place, and I'm glad I made the change.
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:37 PM
 
442 posts, read 1,077,896 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
But in industry, others know your work. If I ever had a manager who went after me the way my current principal has, I'd be able to go around him or above him and enlist the help of people who know my work well. My PR is based on ONE observation by ONE person as a teacher and anything HE chooses to put in my evaluation. While my peers don't understand why this is happening, unlike in industry, they cannot vouch for me because they do not see me work and there are no lateral managers or upper managers who know my work I can go to. Everything is filtered through my principal that goes up.

I've been in political situations in industry and always found help outside of my department if not higher up because I had a reputation based on many people having seen the quality of my work and having interacted with me. As a teacher, unless my students were to stand up for me (unlikely given they don't even know my job is on the line), there's no one to speak for me other than the person writing my PR.

I'm stunned how things have changed. Three years ago, my PR's were being written by a man who thought I was the best thing since sliced bread. They are the opposite of what my PR's are now. A few short sentences on things I can improve followed by paragraphs of what I do right. Now I get the obligatory three positive things (very short sentences) followed by paragraphs on every little thing that went wrong douring the year blown out of proportion and taken out of context.

All I can do is write a rebuttal but that won't save my job or stop a potential employer from rescinding an offer because of a bad PR in my file. I'm not sure how you recover from something like this. I've never been in this position. The worst I had to deal with, in industry, was a manager who didn't promote women. One of the other managers, came to me and told me, off the record, that the decision to give a promotion to a man in my department over me was made solely on the fact he was about to become a father and my manager felt he needed the money. This manager promised to move me to his department and that I'd get that promotion and a year later, that is, exactly what happened. If you have a manager who can't see your value, in industry, there are others who can. Having your principal see no value in you is like having the owner of a company see no value in you. You have no recourse. All there is to do is leave but that gets hard to explain.
I've worked in both, and public education districts are a completely different animal than private sector or even other government employment. People going into education have utterly no idea how terrible the working conditions can be, and most of it is a direct result of the abuse of power by principals and other administrators.

Remember, unlike supervisors in private industry, principals are basically unsupervised and are rarely held accountable for their actions. Their supervisors, if they can be so called, are way over in the other part of town. When principals screw up, which is often, they are very, very rarely fired outright when they should be. Instead, they are given second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh chances to stay with their districts. They get moved to another principal job, are demoted to teacher, given a make-work job in the central office, or even promoted.

Ability has little to do with being promoted principal. One person can literally destroy your career and your life. I had two rotten ones in a row. The next-to-last one was a sociopath with idiotic tendencies (he was finally demoted five years after I worked with him because he committed sexual misconduct with a subordinate and only because the woman's husband complained to the superintendent), and the last one was an idiot with sociopathic tendencies (she fired me illegally violating FMLA, state administrative law, and the negotiated agreement). Both are still employed at my old district doing different jobs when both should have been FIRED. I got fired over literally nothing five years ago and can't get back on my feet financially while these cretins are still ripping off the taxpayers.
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:48 PM
 
442 posts, read 1,077,896 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I can't figure out why I'm being targeted. I can tell you this, if I am still in this district next year (I am doing everything I can to find another job but my kids have to eat (seriously, I have no desire to work for someone who can see nothing good in me.). My principal has made it clear that he will start the process to stop me from tenuring next school year if I'm still around. He's hoping I'll find another job and just go away.), I will document EVERYTHING. I wish I had done more documentation this year. I have some but I don't know if it's enough to show discrimination. My principal tried and failed to show that the kids in my classes perform more poorly than the kids in other classes. The $20,000 question is will a jury side with a teacher in a day and age when we're public enemy #1 and people think it's so hard to get rid of us that you MUST be just awful to be targeted the way I am being targeted.

I'm fast approaching lawyer time. If I can get a lawer to take my case with pay contingent on winning, I've got nothing to lose. Either way, I will see a lawyer as soon as I'm out of this job. We'll see if they think I have a case or not.
Teacher lawsuits very seldom go to trial. Lots of luck if you can even find a lawyer to take your case.

My "union" didn't even tell me of my rights; it was right in bed with the school district.
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:05 AM
 
147 posts, read 411,848 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliTerp07 View Post
OP, I made a similar change. I have a degree in business and was miserable working for one of the big name consulting firms in DC, doing systems implementation work. M-I-S-E-R-A-B-L-E. 70+ hour weeks, canceled vacations, stressed so badly I had anxiety attacks in the parking lot in the morning before work, etc. I now teach 8th grade algebra, and while some parts are still rough (still long hours, still demanding clients (they're just parents instead of government agencies)), it's 1000000x better than it was before. I come home with funny stories, and every day there is SOMETHING that makes me smile. Yes, parts are stressful. Yes, some of the parents suck. The tests are obnoxious, the non-teaching requirements are frustrating.

The real downside? I get paid diddly squat. There haven't been pay raises for years, and likely won't be in the future. I am fortunate that a) my husband wanted to stay in consulting and make the good money, and b) I have no desire to have children of my own, so I didn't have to worry about saving for college. It's also tough for me to live in such a status oriented area (DC), where everyone's first question is, "What do you do?" (i.e. are you useful to me in some way?). I've definitely felt snubbed compared to when I had my former job.

I became a teacher by getting a masters of education. 2 years of night/weekend classes, and I was licensed in secondary math education. Other members of my cohort went for elementary degrees. Virginia actually has a career switcher program, but I'm glad I didn't do it--my student teaching and class discussions were invaluable in making me a better teacher.

I have good days and bad days now. Days where I love life, and days where I wish I had never switched. At the end of the day though, I think I'm in the right place, and I'm glad I made the change.
Cali, thanks for the encouraging example that it can work.
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