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I understand the perception problem entirely. You don't perceive the real problem. They weren't requesting the other teacher because they thought you didn't have the right background or because it was your first time teaching math....they requested the other teacher because of your reputation as a teacher in general.
Yes, that explains why I had students requesting into my chemistry class....
It is now 2013 and you're shocked that you have "perception problems" and may not be tenured?
Clearly your situation should not be surprising to you. Clearly.
It's also clear that, when you've been in basically the same position in 2 different schools, in just a few years' span, that it's time to take a good hard look at what you may be doing to contribute to your situation. I'm certainly not saying it's "all" on you but at some point, you'll need to accept that "some" of it is certainly on you. You have the opportunity of a whole new year year. Is it better for you to continue being stubborn and constantly complaining about how unfair the world is to you, or is it better (although certainly harder) to work hard to try to keep your job? You know that finding a new job is difficult, and right now what you do have is a job, current credentials as well as a daughter in college, a retired husband and another daughter heading to college shortly as well. If I were in your position, I'd do whatever I could to keep the job I had.
Last edited by maciesmom; 09-08-2013 at 10:28 AM..
Reason: typo
Out of curiousity - when a new teacher is hired, is your district not required to hire a certified teacher? I have never heard of anyone questioning if a person was teaching chemistry, parents being upset that they are teaching math. In my experience if students had a good experience with the chemistry teacher and the next yes they taught math, everyone was thrilled.
No, they hire certified teachers. However, its no secret I was hired to teach chemistry not math and I think the fact I wasn't hired to teach math was seen as a negative. It was an internal decision that put me into a bad spot. Moving me to math allowed them to interview physics/chemistry for the open physics/math position and that gave them more candidates to pick from. I am qualified to teach math. What they should have done is issued a letter to the parents explaining that the move was made because I have a math major in addition to my chemistry major.
It doesn't help that the math I teach is geometry and kids often struggle with geometry who never struggled with math before. Parents often blame the teacher when their child struggles. Especially in this district. Unfortunately, you learn geometry by struggling through it. What I really teach is logic. Geometry is just the platform. You can't learn logic by watching someone else use it. You learn it by doing. I tell my kids that what I'm trying to teach them is how to think their way out of a paper bag and the only way you can learn to do that is to be put in the paper bag and try to think your way out. This is really true for any of the four geometry teachers but new is to be feared in the land of must protect my child's GPA at all costs. They'd rather have a known commodity than an unknown one unless the unknown one is seen as an obstacle to that all important 4.0. (6% of our students were named valedictorian last year. It was a LONG graduation ceremony.) I teach in the land of competitive parenting and GPA is one measure of success. I would so flunk as a parent in this district. I gave my own daughter a C+ in chemistry because that's the grade she deserved. I often wish I could say that to some of my parents who are trying to get me to bump that A- to an A.
Chemistry is an 11th grade class. Geometry is a 9th/10th grade class so the kids taking me for geometry would only know of me through older siblings and chemistry is often a class kids struggle with so I have my share of students who didn't like the subject and by association don't really like me. Geometry is also a subject kids struggle with. I'm two for two on classes that can mess up your GPA. Even with the moves from my class to the other geometry teacher's class our grade curves look the same. (We give common assessments so we can directly compare whether our kids are doing better/worse than another teacher's kids.)
You have to understand that I'm in a district where GPA is everything. Preserving parental bragging rights is important and I teach two of the subjects most likely to mess up that GPA. (Chemistry is required for graduation.) I swear the majority of the parents of my 9th graders see their child's non existent high school GPA as a 4.0 they are protecting...and for many of the advanced students, geometry is their first high school math class. Geometry is just different. It's not like algebra I where you just follow the steps the teacher gives you and you get the right answer. I'm 99% certain I would not have had requests out of my class if I taught algebra instead of geometry because I wouldn't have the advanced 9th graders and their over protective hover parents. Even my principal admits that he should have had me teach algebra not geometry for this reason. Unfortunately, he won't defend me because he won't tell a parent they are wrong.
In chemistry, I had requests both out and into my classes as did the other teacher. I'm fine with that because it seems to be the kids who really want to learn who are asking for me. As a result, he has more failures but that's just because of kids thinking he's easier than me. He's not. We give the same tests and quizzes. In fact, this year, we're pretty much lock stepped and doing the same assignments. He's partial to investigations and I'm partial to the Socratic method. We're doing a mix of investigations and lecture/discussion this year. He thinks enough of my teaching ability to want to follow what I do and I like to mix it up so I'm ok with some of the investigations. Some of them I won't do though because I know kids can't "discover" the material. Rather they need to be led to the right conclusions. I have to admit that the investigation packets are a lot less work for me but kids complained last year that he "Just gave out packets instead of teaching". I will use the packets but I'm going to teach too. He can handle his class how he wants. He did ask for all of my lecture notes at the end of last year which I gave him, I like to share and borrow. No sense reinventing the wheel. IMO it's much better just to improve on the wheel someone else made.
I just wanted to add that kids I had for geometry last year seem happy to have me for chemistry this year. I'm a familiar face and one less teacher they need to figure out. I had several of them come bouncing into the classroom, grinning and asking "Did you miss me over the summer Mrs. I?" So there is a good side to this. One reason I asked to teach physical science instead of the lower chemistry class was so that I could have kids multiple years. I do best with the kids I get to know but it takes a long time to get to that point. It's nice to have 30 kids on day one who I'm already know. I'm certain I had some kids request the other teacher because they didn't like me as a geometry teacher and that's fine....except that my principal will use that against me.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-08-2013 at 10:03 AM..
No, they hire certified teachers. However, its no secret I was hired to teach chemistry not math and I think the fact I wasn't hired to teach math was seen as a negative. It was an internal decision that put me into a bad spot. It doesn't help that the math I teach is geometry and kids often struggle with geometry who never struggled with math before. Parents often blame the teacher when their child struggles. Unfortunately, you learn geometry by struggling through it. What I really teach is logic. Geometry is just the platform. You can't learn logic by watching someone else use it. You learn it by doing.
Chemistry is an 11th grade class. Geometry is a 9th/10th grade class so the kids taking me for geometry would only know of me through older siblings and chemistry is often a class kids struggle with so I have my share of students who didn't like the subject and by association don't really like me. Geometry is also a subject kids struggle with. I'm two for two on classes that can mess up your GPA. Even with the moves from my class to the other geometry teacher's class our grade curves look the same. (We give common assessments so we can directly compare whether our kids are doing better/worse than another teacher's kids.)
You have to understand that I'm in a district where GPA is everything. Preserving parental bragging rights is important and I teach two of the subjects most likely to mess up that GPA. (Chemistry is required for graduation.) I swear the majority of the parents of my 9th graders see their child's non existent high school GPA as a 4.0 they are protecting...and for many of the advanced students, geometry is their first high school math class. Geometry is just different. It's not like algebra I where you just follow the steps the teacher gives you and you get the right answer. I'm 99% certain I would not have had requests out of my class if I taught algebra instead of geometry because I wouldn't have the advanced 9th graders and their over protective hover parents. Even my principal admits that he should have had me teach algebra not geometry for this reason. Unfortunately, he won't defend me because he won't tell a parent they are wrong.
In chemistry, I had requests both out and into my classes as did the other teacher. I'm fine with that because it seems to be the kids who really want to learn who are asking for me. As a result, he has more failures but that's just because of kids thinking he's easier than me. He's not. We give the same tests and quizzes. In fact, this year, we're pretty much lock stepped and doing the same assignments. He's partial to investigations and I'm partial to the Socratic method. We're doing a mix of investigations and lecture/discussion this year. He thinks enough of my teaching ability to want to follow what I do and I like to mix it up so I'm ok with some of the investigations. Some of them I won't do though because I know kids can't "discover" the material. Rather they need to be led to the right conclusions. I have to admit that the investigation packets are a lot less work for me but kids complained last year that he "Just gave out packets instead of teaching". I will use the packets but I'm going to teach too. He can handle his class how he wants. He did ask for all of my lecture notes at the end of last year.
Ivory, if your students are "struggling", you are doing something wrong. If anything, the practical applications of geometry are straight forward. If you have capable students who are "struggling", you need to step back and take a hard look at what you are doing.
If the other chemistry teacher is "perceived" to be easier, perhaps the kids are achieving the same grades without being forced to "struggle."
If your kids are going home miserable because they are "struggling" no wonder their parents do not want them in your class.
The fact that he has more failures is irrelevant unless the kids who transferred out of your class into his are the ones who are failing. If the kids who transfer out are making better grades than they would have in your class, that should tell you something.
Challenging students is different from forcing them to "struggle". You can give kids who are capable more challenging work, but if you deliberately make it too difficult for them and set them up for failure, what have you accomplished?
Last year was my first year teaching geometry, and no one requested out of my class because I was new. More kids did better in geometry than they did in algebra 1. I did not teach the honors section so there was no reason for me to make the class exceedingly difficult. There has to be a good balance. You have to remember that this is HS math...don't make it any harder than it needs to be.
What they should have done is issued a letter to the parents explaining that the
move was made because I have a math major in addition to my chemistry major.
You think admin should have sent out a letter to parents explaining your credentials and why they decided tomove you? Is it common practice for your school to send out letters to parents regarding personnel and staffing decisions? If I were to receive such a letter I would find it odd and frankly it would raise more questions than it would answer.
I have never ever received any kind of letter explaining school administration's decisions on where to place their teachers or what the teacher's majors/credentials were.
Just last year (or perhaps the year before, I get lost sometimes) you were complaining about teaching chemistry because the lab preps required presented an unfair burden to you. You wished you were the math teacher because they had it "easy" with no lab preps. You are now a math teacher and you are still complaining. Maybe your admin just feels you are high maintenance to them.
Last edited by maciesmom; 09-08-2013 at 11:04 AM..
Ivory, if your students are "struggling", you are doing something wrong. If anything, the practical applications of geometry are straight forward. If you have capable students who are "struggling", you need to step back and take a hard look at what you are doing.
If the other chemistry teacher is "perceived" to be easier, perhaps the kids are achieving the same grades without being forced to "struggle."
If your kids are going home miserable because they are "struggling" no wonder their parents do not want them in your class.
The fact that he has more failures is irrelevant unless the kids who transferred out of your class into his are the ones who are failing. If the kids who transfer out are making better grades than they would have in your class, that should tell you something.
Challenging students is different from forcing them to "struggle". You can give kids who are capable more challenging work, but if you deliberately make it too difficult for them and set them up for failure, what have you accomplished?
No, the kids struggle in the other teacher's classes too and they struggle with the same material. Geometry isn't taught so much as it is learned. It's logic. You learn by attempting it, making mistakes and correcting the mistakes and that leads to struggles. It doesn't matter if I do 2, 10 or 20 examples, I will still get the same deer caught in headlights looks from my students when they try that first problem themselves. Every proof is different. The logic in every problem is different. It's like learning how to do puzzles. The more you do the better you get at them. You can watch someone else to 100 puzzles and not learn how to do them yourself. It takes doing them. That's not what they're used to in math. There's a major gear shift here.
Right now we're on pattern recognition. Every pattern they're given is different. I arm them with strategies to get started and off we go. Sometimes they figure the patterns out sometimes they need help seeing them. The same thing happens when we do proofs. At first, they will almost all fail at doing proofs. By the end of chapter 2 about half of them will have it figured out. By the end of chapter 4 about half of the remaining kids figure out proofs. Then we drop proofs because we find that staying on them doesn't result in more kids getting them. Unfortunately, kids use proof like logic throughout geometry so the group that doesn't get proofs is the group that struggles the most. By the end of the year, half of my kids have this stuff down so well that they'll start asking "Can we just try it now?" when I'm still lecturing. I love it when they tell me to shut up because they want to try it.
Geometry isn't like algebra where you just have to follow the same steps the teacher took. You need to understand geometry. You need to reason through the problems. This is the first math class where they've been asked to think logically to solve the problems. Before this, it's pretty much recognizing the problem type and following the right algorithm to get an answer.
Grades were actually higher in my chemistry class in part because I had fewer failures. The perception of hard/easy isn't based on grades. The kids didn't have grades yet when they made these decisions. I have a reputation for not being an easy teacher. The new teacher had no reputation last year. It is highly possible that reputation for not being an easy teacher tainted how parents view me as a geometry teacher before I had a chance to establish a reputation as a geometry teacher. Chemistry is hard for most students and I set the bar high because I know from experience that all of my students learn more when I do. I have a reputation for not being an easy A in a school where A's are the most common grade given. To a parent of an advanced 9th grader that could be scary. There's that non existent 4.0 GPA to protect.
However, I get parents preferring the experienced teacher over the inexperienced one. Any parent would. I just don't think that should be held against me. The fix for that is teach the subject for 3 years. Then I will be considered experienced as well. Unfortunately, time is what I need and time is the one thing I don't have.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-08-2013 at 11:12 AM..
Last year was my first year teaching geometry, and no one requested out of my class because I was new. More kids did better in geometry than they did in algebra 1. I did not teach the honors section so there was no reason for me to make the class exceedingly difficult. There has to be a good balance. You have to remember that this is HS math...don't make it any harder than it needs to be.
All four geometry teachers teach the same lesson on the same day in my school. All four of us give the same test on the same day. Grade curves for my class compare favorably to those of my peers. I'm not making it any harder than the other teachers or pacing any faster than they are. I was just the new teacher and they are experienced teachers. Parents requesting teachers is common at my school because it's allowed. I believe I had more requests simply because it was my first year teaching geometry (which is not the subject I was hired to teach) and I have a reputation from chemistry for not being an easy A.
I also do not teach honors geometry. We don't have honors geometry. "Honors" kids are on an accelerated track. They take math classes a year in advance but they take the same class the kids a year above them take.
The geometry teacher I paired with last year told me that I'm a victim of circumstance. He had the fortune of replacing a teacher everyone hated. I had the misfortune of replacing a teacher everyone loved. Part of my problem is I'm just not Mr. B. Kids thought they were getting Mr. B. but he left and I was moved into his position. When the teacher I paired with last year came in, the parents were just glad to be rid of the other teacher. I think there's something to this. I've had the other math teachers sit in on my classes and they aren't seeing glaring issues. They'll have minor suggestions but that's it. They tell me my teaching methods are sound.
However, I get parents preferring the experienced teacher over the inexperienced one. Any parent would. I just don't think that should be held against me.
Not true at my school. As a second year teacher, I had numerous kids requesting to move into my class, out of the "experienced" (15+ years) teacher's room. I had several parents come up to me on back to school night saying their student didn't understand things the way the other teacher taught (he moved too fast, wasn't clear, etc) and they wanted their child in my room. This year to counterbalance that, they gave the experienced teacher all the honors classes, and I took all the regular ones, so that there is an easy reason why you can't switch teachers.
To be honest, new teachers struggle with behavior/classroom management a lot more, but I think they're often more willing to design innovative lessons & activities, because they don't have a stash of old stuff to go on when they are tired. I know that I am still creating so much new stuff for my classes each day that I can custom tailor it to the kids I know are in my room.
You've said in the past that you had too many A's in chemistry classes, so you upped the level of difficulty to try to lower the grades back down to what you thought they should be. You've said you don't think there is a place for games and activities and cooperative learning structures in a high school classroom. THOSE are reasons why I wouldn't want my child in your classroom--not because you were new.
No, the kids struggle in the other teacher's classes too and they struggle with the same material. Geometry isn't taught so much as it is learned. It's logic. You learn by attempting it, making mistakes and correcting the mistakes and that leads to struggles. It doesn't matter if I do 2, 10 or 20 examples, I will still get the same deer caught in headlights looks from my students when they try that first problem themselves. Every proof is different. The logic in every problem is different. It's like learning how to do puzzles. The more you do the better you get at them. You can watch someone else to 100 puzzles and not learn how to do them yourself. It takes doing them. That's not what they're used to in math. There's a major gear shift here.
Right now we're on pattern recognition. Every pattern they're given is different. I arm them with strategies to get started and off we go. Sometimes they figure the patterns out sometimes they need help seeing them. The same thing happens when we do proofs. At first, they will almost all fail at doing proofs. By the end of chapter 2 about half of them will have it figured out. By the end of chapter 4 about half of the remaining kids figure out proofs. Then we drop proofs because we find that staying on them doesn't result in more kids getting them. Unfortunately, kids use proof like logic throughout geometry so the group that doesn't get proofs is the group that struggles the most. By the end of the year, half of my kids have this stuff down so well that they'll start asking "Can we just try it now?" when I'm still lecturing. I love it when they tell me to shut up because they want to try it.
Geometry isn't like algebra where you just have to follow the same steps the teacher took. You need to understand geometry. You need to reason through the problems. This is the first math class where they've been asked to think logically to solve the problems. Before this, it's pretty much recognizing the problem type and following the right algorithm to get an answer.
Grades were actually higher in my chemistry class in part because I had fewer failures. The perception of hard/easy isn't based on grades. The kids didn't have grades yet when they made these decisions. I have a reputation for not being an easy teacher. The new teacher had no reputation last year. It is highly possible that reputation for not being an easy teacher tainted how parents view me as a geometry teacher before I had a chance to establish a reputation as a geometry teacher. Chemistry is hard for most students and I set the bar high because I know from experience that all of my students learn more when I do. I have a reputation for not being an easy A in a school where A's are the most common grade given. To a parent of an advanced 9th grader that could be scary. There's that non existent 4.0 GPA to protect.
However, I get parents preferring the experienced teacher over the inexperienced one. Any parent would. I just don't think that should be held against me. The fix for that is teach the subject for 3 years. Then I will be considered experienced as well. Unfortunately, time is what I need and time is the one thing I don't have.
Your students should be able to make mistakes and correct them without "struggling". If they are "struggling" that implies to me that they are stressed. They will give up. I think that some of the parents do not want their kids in that environment.
You seem to be proud that you are not an "easy A" teacher. Yet before, you said you give the same grades as the other teachers. You can't have it both ways. If you do not give easy As and you grade the same as other teachers, then those teachers do not give easy As either and there is no reason to prefer the other teachers. It sounds to me like you want your reputation as a hard teacher, but you don't like it when parents want to pull kids out of your class.
You still haven't answered my question. Do the kids who transfer out of your classes fail, or do they make higher grades in the other class, or do they make the same grade?
If they fail, perhaps the parents knew the chances of failure were even higher in your class.
If they are the more capable students and they make a higher grade in the other class, then they did so with a teacher who is perceived as easier (but isn't, according to you). And if they make the same grades, perhaps it was with less stress. There has to be a reason that other teachers are perceived as easier, even if they are teaching material of the same level of difficulty.
By the way, there are students who will achieve the mythical 4.0 GPA. I suspect that there are some parents who have heard that you guard the As. That gets back to another question I asked previously that you have not answered. Do you make it clear to your students what is expected for them to earn an A? If you had a class with a high proportion of capable students who fulfilled that expectation, would they all earn an A, or would you feel compelled to up the ante until some of them got a B? If you have a class with an exceptional student who is head and shoulders above everyone else, will there only be one student in your class who gets an A? If parents know you are a slave to the bell curve and will do what it takes to limit the higher grade, they will not want you to teach their kids.
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