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No, that's how I perceive easy A's. I'm not sure what the point of easy A's is. IMO, if A's are easy you're not teaching kids to the levels you could. They're capable of more. Shouldn't we be asking our A students to stretch? What is wrong with challenging our best and brightest to be better?
If 25% of students are performing at an A level then the A level is too low. I know it is in my classes. I teach less and to a lower level than I was taught in high school (there were few A's given in chemistry when I took it in high school). This is done so more A's are given out. I don't get the point.
We don't do tracking anymore. What you state is fine in an AP/Honors class but in a regular class there is no tracking..you have all skill levels.
You cannot teach to the A student and challenge them because you think if they get an A then you aren't challenging them enough. What about your B, C, D and failing students ? They are sitting right next to that A student.
This is not college. You don't get to set the bar. Your state did when they defined the curriculum.
If you have too many A students then recommend they switch to an AP/Honors class to be challenged.
In K-12 the goal is that everyone passes.
There is no quota for A's, B's, C's, etc.
This is not industry where you are ranked and there is a bell curve and only so many can be the over achievers that get the good raises.
K-12 is a whole 'nother world here. And I came from the corporate world.
When I had a class I bent over backwards to help these kids pass.
And none of the teachers ever boasted about how many or how few A's they gave.
The goal is to teach so the kids pass. If you teach well you'll have few failures.
And when I gave grades I didn't count how many A's or B's or C's I gave out.
The only grade I worried about was failing grades and intervention/remediation for them.
I graded that student on their own achievement..not by any made up quota of finite "A's".
If they deserved an A they got it.
The issue isn't with challenging them, it is with your perception of the purpose of grades in high school. It is wrong if your B or C, that would have earned them an A under any other teacher, cost them a scholarship. Your insistence on only 25% getting an A in an AP class, where you have a room full of students with 4.0s, may very well be costing some deserving kid $40,000-120,000.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1
I'm going to go out on a limb and bet they don't let you teach AP, even though you are a subject matter expert and were hired for that very reason. This perception that you have that over 25% A's in a class is an indication that too many are coasting, is why if I were your principal I would only give you classes where lower grades didn't have as much of an impact. Good effective teachers can inspire and motivate students by means other than just grades. There is nothing wrong with giving a kid a B, C, D, or even failing grade if they fail to meet clearly established, tangible, identifiable, and obtainable benchmarks for those grades. It is wrong if it is because you decided to make those benchmarks harder to obtain just because too many were achieving those eariler stated goals.
What an excellent point.
When my older brother was in HS 50 years ago, long before AP classes, there was a teacher who taught a special English class, only the top 30 seniors could be enrolled. In the years just before she retired, the teacher said that the "quality of students was diminishing" and they were not doing A quality work, in fact she didn't an A to any student in that special (honors) English class for several years.
Year after year top students who had fabulously high grade points received a B from this teacher. My brother said that the Valedictorian from his class never would had received that honor except for the fact that he had some type of conflict and was forced to take a different English class where he received an A, thus beating out all of the other top students who received a B in the special, very prestigious, no way administration would let you get out of the "honor" of taking that class , English class.
My brother said that it was obviously quite unfair and never could figure why school administrators didn't step in to "fix the problem". The first comment reminded me of that situation.
The issue isn't with challenging them, it is with your perception of the purpose of grades in high school. It is wrong if your B or C, that would have earned them an A under any other teacher, cost them a scholarship. Your insistence on only 25% getting an A in an AP class, where you have a room full of students with 4.0s, may very well be costing some deserving kid $40,000-120,000.
Such a person could permanently and negatively effect the long-term educational and career goals of a child, and has no business teaching. It is akin to theft, and all because of some bizarre, deep-seated disdain and jealousy for high-achieving children. It's so very wrong.
I have never, ever requested a particular teacher for any of my kids. If the teacher had a reputation as being difficult, I told them they were up to the challenge, and they were. Of course, they never had a teacher who would withhold a top grade due to a personal issue.
I would fight tooth and nail to get any of my kids out of this teacher's class.
We don't do tracking anymore. What you state is fine in an AP/Honors class but in a regular class there is no tracking..you have all skill levels.
You cannot teach to the A student and challenge them because you think if they get an A then you aren't challenging them enough. What about your B, C, D and failing students ? They are sitting right next to that A student.
This is not college. You don't get to set the bar. Your state did when they defined the curriculum.
If you have too many A students then recommend they switch to an AP/Honors class to be challenged.
You do not get to make the rules here.
I find that when I raise the bar, all of my students learn more. I did this at the charter school and passing scores on the state tests jumped 41%. Those gains were not seen in the top of the class. They already passed. They were seen in the middle/bottom of the class. This is not for the sole benefit of the A students. Even my D students learn more when more is taught or when what is taught is taught to more depth. Everyone loses with the dummying down we've done with education.
I got a C+/D+ in chemistry in high school. My chemistry class was a cross between what I teach and what is taught in AP chemistry today. I retained enough from that class to go on to college and excel in chemistry. Today, I'd probably get an A in high school chemistry for the same work. Even with a D+ I was able to do things my students would choke on. Our semester one final was a culminating lab that required us to identify the contents of two test tubes. It took an entire week of planning and testing. If you didn't plan well and ran out of chemicals, oh well. I'd have cries of foul all over the place if I tried that. That lab was cool. Pulled my grade up from a D+ to a C+ on that one. Second semester our big activities were two term papers and a book report. I only turned on one term paper so I'm lucky I got a D+.
When I got to college, they made me take a lower level chemistry class because of that D+ second semester. It was a cake walk. So was the next chemistry class and the one after that. So, did my teacher do me a disservice by raising the bar so high that few A's were given? I don't think so. He laid a great foundation. One that carried me far. Sure I could have gotten an A if chemistry were taught the way it is today but what would I have really learned? BTW I got one of the highest science scores on the ACT in the school. I earned that D+ and I'm glad my teacher didn't do anything to fix it. I learned some valuable lessons that year along with some great chemistry. At least great by todays standards. It's a shame we don't make our kids think anymore.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-11-2013 at 07:07 PM..
The issue isn't with challenging them, it is with your perception of the purpose of grades in high school. It is wrong if your B or C, that would have earned them an A under any other teacher, cost them a scholarship. Your insistence on only 25% getting an A in an AP class, where you have a room full of students with 4.0s, may very well be costing some deserving kid $40,000-120,000. I'm going to go out on a limb and bet they don't let you teach AP, even though you are a subject matter expert and were hired for that very reason. This perception that you have that over 25% A's in a class is an indication that too many are coasting, is why if I were your principal I would only give you classes where lower grades didn't have as much of an impact. Good effective teachers can inspire and motivate students by means other than just grades. There is nothing wrong with giving a kid a B, C, D, or even failing grade if they fail to meet clearly established, tangible, identifiable, and obtainable benchmarks for those grades. It is wrong if it is because you decided to make those benchmarks harder to obtain just because too many were achieving those eariler stated goals.
You need to read my posts. I don't teach 80% of what is in my benchmarks!!! I can't. I get told I pace too fast if I try. The state has my 12 unit documents laid out to be taught in 12, 3 week sections. I get 9 of them taught, in a good year, and then gloss over a few more things. You're not hearing what I'm saying. I'm teaching less than is prescribed. I'm not teaching what was taught in chemistry in high school when I took chemistry. That's why so many A's are being given. Those A's are not a true reflection of the student's chemistry ability because they missed 3 units. If' I'm teaching only 80% of the material, then a 95% in my class means the student demonstrated mastery of 76% of the material they should have learned. So yes, I think I give too many A's. There is no doubt I'd give fewer if we paced the way the state has the curriculum laid out (we lose 4 of those 36 weeks just reviewing material that is not even in my benchmarks because I can't assume they know it at the beginning of the year) and no doubt that my students would learn more. Teaching is about learning not grades. Grades should reflect learning. They should be earned not by taking the easy teacher but by mastering the material. All of it. Not the dummied down version that guarantees lots of A's. If I were teaching all of the benchmarks to the level the state recommends, I'd be happier than a pig in slop if 25% of my students got A's. It's knowing I'm not and I'm handing out so many A's that is the issue.
If the high number of A's was due to students mastering all of the benchmarks, so be it but they're not. In both schools I have taught in, there have been a significant number of students who had good grades, and went off to college only to flunk out their first year, return home and then head off to a community college. One year this happened to a valedictorian. Easy grades are not good for our kids. For many of them, if they don't head off to an equally dummied down college, they're going to be in trouble. I've heard of kids who lost those scholarships once they got to college because they couldn't keep up their grades. You're wrong if you think this is just about getting scholarships. You have to have the ability to keep them too.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-11-2013 at 07:31 PM..
I find that when I raise the bar, all of my students learn more. I did this at the charter school and passing scores on the state tests jumped 41%. Those gains were not seen in the top of the class. They already passed. They were seen in the middle/bottom of the class. This is not for the sole benefit of the A students. Even my D students learn more when more is taught or when what is taught is taught to more depth. Everyone loses with the dummying down we've done with education.
I got a C+/D+ in chemistry in high school. My chemistry class was a cross between what I teach and what is taught in AP chemistry today. I retained enough from that class to go on to college and excel in chemistry. Today, I'd probably get an A in high school chemistry for the same work. Even with a D+ I was able to do things my students would choke on. Our semester one final was a culminating lab that required us to identify the contents of two test tubes. It took an entire week of planning and testing. If you didn't plan well and ran out of chemicals, oh well. I'd have cries of foul all over the place if I tried that. That lab was cool. Pulled my grade up from a D+ to a C+ on that one. Second semester our big activities were two term papers and a book report. I only turned on one term paper so I'm lucky I got a D+.
When I got to college, they made me take a lower level chemistry class because of that D+ second semester. It was a cake walk. So was the next chemistry class and the one after that. So, did my teacher do me a disservice by raising the bar so high that few A's were given? I don't think so. He laid a great foundation. One that carried me far. Sure I could have gotten an A if chemistry were taught the way it is today but what would I have really learned? BTW I got one of the highest science scores on the ACT in the school. I earned that D+ and I'm glad my teacher didn't do anything to fix it. I learned some valuable lessons that year along with some great chemistry. At least great by todays standards. It's a shame we don't make our kids think anymore.
So you made a poor grade because you did not do the work. That is a far cry from doing the work and not getting an A because the teacher rations them. Would you make an A today if you blew off doing a term paper? If a student has a poor grade and aces the ACT, there is something wrong. If the low grade is because he did not do the work needed to make a higher grade, that is his fault. I am sure there are students who absorb the material but do not give a fig about their grades. I have a brother in law who was thought to be pretty average until he took the SAT. But if the low grade is because the teacher refuses to award "too many As," it is the teacher's fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
You need to read my posts. I don't teach 80% of what is in my benchmarks!!! I can't. I get told I pace too fast if I try. The state has my 12 unit documents laid out to be taught in 12, 3 week sections. I get 9 of them taught, in a good year, and then gloss over a few more things. You're not hearing what I'm saying. I'm NOT teaching what I'm supposed to. I'm not teaching what was taught in chemistry in high school when I took chemistry. That's why so many A's are being given. Those A's are not a true reflection of the student's chemistry ability because they missed 3 units completely and barely touched a few select topics beyond that. If' I'm teaching only 80% of the material, then a 95% in my class means the student demonstrated mastery of 76% of the material they should have been taught.
Why can't you teach all the material? How can you be going too fast if that is what the benchmark says you should do? And how is untaught material even figured into the grade? If a student learns 95% of what you actually taught, that's what his grade should be based on. You cannot penalize the student because you did not meet your teaching benchmark.
You are not teaching the same course you took in high school. I get that. I do not believe it is even intended to be the same class you took, since apparently it has to be taken by all students in your school to graduate. But you cannot give grades on what you think should be taught but has not been taught. Sheesh. The parents have figured it out. Apparently you haven't.
I find that when I raise the bar, all of my students learn more. I did this at the charter school and passing scores on the state tests jumped 41%. Those gains were not seen in the top of the class. They already passed. They were seen in the middle/bottom of the class. This is not for the sole benefit of the A students. Even my D students learn more when more is taught or when what is taught is taught to more depth. Everyone loses with the dummying down we've done with education.
I got a C+/D+ in chemistry in high school. My chemistry class was a cross between what I teach and what is taught in AP chemistry today. I retained enough from that class to go on to college and excel in chemistry. Today, I'd probably get an A in high school chemistry for the same work. Even with a D+ I was able to do things my students would choke on. Our semester one final was a culminating lab that required us to identify the contents of two test tubes. It took an entire week of planning and testing. If you didn't plan well and ran out of chemicals, oh well. I'd have cries of foul all over the place if I tried that. That lab was cool. Pulled my grade up from a D+ to a C+ on that one. Second semester our big activities were two term papers and a book report. I only turned on one term paper so I'm lucky I got a D+.
When I got to college, they made me take a lower level chemistry class because of that D+ second semester. It was a cake walk. So was the next chemistry class and the one after that. So, did my teacher do me a disservice by raising the bar so high that few A's were given? I don't think so. He laid a great foundation. One that carried me far. Sure I could have gotten an A if chemistry were taught the way it is today but what would I have really learned? BTW I got one of the highest science scores on the ACT in the school. I earned that D+ and I'm glad my teacher didn't do anything to fix it. I learned some valuable lessons that year along with some great chemistry. At least great by todays standards. It's a shame we don't make our kids think anymore.
You aren't teaching 25-30 years ago, you are teaching today. Grading standards have changed and colleges judge students not how grades were done when you went to school, but on what goes on in schools today. You may be what kills a kid's chance to go to the school they want or receive a scholarship. And why? Because you recieved a D and thought it was fine. I want to tell you, had I recieved a D in Chemistry in high school, back in the stone ages, I would have been devastated and doubted my own ability. Most likely I would not have gotten the scholarship that allowed me to go to college. In other words Ivory, if I had you, I might not have gotten to even go to college. If I was a parent at your school, I would not want my child in your class, no matter how good of a teacher you are. This is why you have more parents requesting their child be removed from your class than any other teacher.
Your stubborn insistence on this is most likely one of the reasons why your career in education is in jeopardy. I really think you mean well, but I swear, you are your own worst enemy.
Your principal is grading YOU as a teacher the same way you want to grade your students. Hopefully you learn something from your failing observations, and grow as a teacher from him telling you that you are not performing well. After all, you seem to think this is what we should do to assess students. Clearly you wouldn't want him to just tell you you're a good teacher, would you?
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Even with a D+ I was able to do things my students would choke on. Our semester one final was a culminating lab that required us to identify the contents of two test tubes. It took an entire week of planning and testing. If you didn't plan well and ran out of chemicals, oh well. I'd have cries of foul all over the place if I tried that. That lab was cool. Pulled my grade up from a D+ to a C+ on that one. Second semester our big activities were two term papers and a book report. I only turned on one term paper so I'm lucky I got a D+.
