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Well I didn't seek out training as an engineer either. I got my masters degree to get a promotion. Any training I got beyond that was provided by the company to make me more valuable to them (they paid for my masters degree too). Training is not the best measure of dedication to your field. I learned more in both engineering and teaching on the job and doing my own research than I did in training classes with the exception of my first three years teaching when I did a boatload of training on classroom management. Now I pretty much know what is taught in training I take because of the research I've done on my own or previous training and experience so I only take the training I need to renew my cert unless something is really interesting to me.
So put me in the disagree column.
I think the reason that teachers are disrespected is that we don't value education in this country. We view it as something done to us as children. Teachers are perceived to have control over students by students. I think most people exit school with a general dislike for teachers. Which makes sense given that in school we are taught things that are not immediately valuable to us. It's not like learning a trade you can immediately apply to earn money. You're taught stuff you see no real need for.
1. So in the other thread you're basically complaining that the job you do in the classroom is not respected. And here is this thread you're saying that you didn't respect the training that others were doing "to" you. Can't you see the connection?
2. Naturally, you can't reach all students with the why this is important to learn understanding. But as I sat through various inservice learning experiences, if I found myself not understanding why what we were doing was important, then I didn't think the educator was doing a very good job. If we, as teachers, can't successfully impart at least general reasons that our content is important, and successfully impart an understanding of why a particular lesson plan is important...than we as educators (or as an educator) are failing. Red Skelton did a better job of doing that than my 11th grade world lit teacher. One night I was watching Skelton's show, and I found myself saying that the skit was basically a Shakespearean story. Where my teacher had failed was that she taught the play, but she didn't put it in the context of current films and television shows and societal references. She never got to why it was important to be reading "Macbeth".
And guess what. If a teacher is unsuccessful (at least overall) of helping students understand why what they're teaching is important...then maybe what they're teaching is not important.
Teachers and principals and other educators want to be treated like professionals.
What is a profession?
A definition I found and toyed with is:something more than a job…a career with people who become competent through extensive training in their chosen field and then choose to maintain and improve their skills through regular professional development and by sometimes providing leadership in their field; they make a commitment to ethical practice to protect the interests of their colleagues and clients.
Based on my experience in 3 high schools and 4 middle schools (or junior highs) over 33 years, I don’t believe that most educators choose to improve their skills by seeking out opportunities for professional development (beyond what is required to maintain their certification or what a district requires), and few take opportunities to provide leadership in their profession.
I’m sure some of you are going to clobber me, but this is how I see the profession of teaching, and it is the main reason why teachers are not respected by the public in the way that they want to be.
I open the floor to discussion.
Below are actual definitions of "profession." I did not "toy with them" and the last one actually uses teaching as an example. You don't get to just change the definition of a word to fit your opinion and pretend that it means anything.
"a : a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive academic preparation
b : a principal calling, vocation, or employment
c : the whole body of persons engaged in a calling"
"noun
1.
a vocation requiring knowledge of some department of learning or science:
the profession of teaching.
Compare learned profession.
2.
any vocation or business.
3.
the body of persons engaged in an occupation or calling:
to be respected by the medical profession."
"A paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.
‘his chosen profession of teaching’
‘a barrister by profession’"
But so are many teachers... Or does membership and active contribution to to professional organizations and unions not count in our profession for some reason? Do the unpaid clubs I sponsor after school not count for some reason? Do the hours I spend keeping up to date on the latest research in both educational study and my chosen subfields (history, poli-sci,economics, geography, sociology) not count?
What contributions do you think teachers should be making that they are not currently?
Ah, and so we come once again to economics and incentive, the driver of all human endeavor.
The way I see it is that every job has three main kinds of incentives. Financial compensation, time and benefits, and personal satisfaction (sometimes labeled as enjoyment or social value). In my opinion you can sort of imagine them as the points of a triangle. Each job lies at a point somewhere in that triangle. You can have a good balance of things, a lot of one, or any combination... but you can not have it all.
I have a lot of close friends that work in similar careers to your own... and many of them do similar types of things to what you describe here. And do you know why? It's because they have a strong incentive to. They make much better money than I do and some even have free time... But they don't feel valuable. That is their incentive.
On the other hand we teachers live somewhere on that Value-Time line. We are full up on feeling like we are contributing to society what we lack is money. Luckily for me I have a wife who makes good money, no children, and no debt. I have lots of time to attend classes and better my craft... But what about my co-worker who is a single father of four. Are you really telling me that instead of running a house painting business during the summer that he should act more professional? Or my friend who is trying to pay rent and debt in a difficult economy who teaches first grade all day, tutors after, and then waits tables all night to pay bills?
People respond to incentives. Not all incentives are monetary ones but they all matter.
IMHO this is a false dichotomy. I know plenty of people in what are usually considered to be trades such as mechanics, plumbers etc. that are highly involved in professional organizations, educational outreach, political activism dealing with their job, and leadership within their fields. I also know plenty of lawyers, doctors, engineers etc. who do none of what you describe.
The profession/trade division is a outdated bougie concept devised to give certain types of white collar workers a pat on the back and delude themselves into thinking they are somehow superior to the working man.
1. I can give you a very good example of what teacher-leaders do, or should be doing. At various times, often depending on budgets, as a principal I was given some funding to provide to teachers who wanted to participate in seminars or the like that they felt would improve their performance in the classroom, even though it was not the county-wide focus (which would be paid for by the system) (other times, even if not given money specifically for that purpose, I could squeeze out a little money to help a teacher pay for such experiences). Other times I just needed to pay for a sub for a day or two or three while a teacher went out for some similar learning experience. But, on my end, there was a always a catch...a price the teacher had to pay -- when you come back you have to share what you learned/experienced with an appropriate group of educators in the building. Depending on what they had participated in, they might need to present to whole staff, or their department, or their team. That's an example of how teachers can lead and improve learning and professionalism at the local level.
2. I think you need to take (or re-take) psych 101 and learn (or relearn) about intrinsic versus extrinsic motivators.
Below are actual definitions of "profession." I did not "toy with them" and the last one actually uses teaching as an example. You don't get to just change the definition of a word to fit your opinion and pretend that it means anything.
"a : a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive academic preparation
b : a principal calling, vocation, or employment
c : the whole body of persons engaged in a calling"
"noun
1.
a vocation requiring knowledge of some department of learning or science:
the profession of teaching.
Compare learned profession.
2.
any vocation or business.
3.
the body of persons engaged in an occupation or calling:
to be respected by the medical profession."
"A paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.
‘his chosen profession of teaching’
‘a barrister by profession’"
Dictionaries are not life.
Dictionaries are not sacred.
If you argument is a dictionary definition, you're in the shallow end of the pool. A dictionary definition is no more than a jumping off point for a discussion.
When I say "toyed with", I simply mean that I combined thoughts from several published articles about education as profession, not just dreamed up something of my own.
A very good post. And I think your final question is the key that I am trying to get to. I worked with teachers and other educators who were true "professionals". And I worked with teachers and other educators who were just doing a job. My question is (in this thread): what differentiates the two?
They are all professional teachers. If you want to differentiate, you are going to have to find another word. "Professional" is already taken, and it defines all teachers.
I see what you mean, OP. Teaching isn't like anything in the medical realm--even massage therapy--where practitioners are required to take Continuing Ed courses to maintain their license. Lawyers, too. OTOH, there are plenty of "professions" that don't require that. AFAIK, engineers aren't required to take CE classes. Or am I mistaken about that?
Teachers tend to improve simply as they gain experience. But there are also the slackers, who, once they reach a level of competence, do the least amount necessary to get by. I've visited schools, though, that send their teachers to schools around the country, to observe innovative teaching techniques, and bring new ideas home with them, to implement in the classroom. I suppose that's rare, though.
If you argument is a dictionary definition, you're in the shallow end of the pool. A dictionary definition is no more than a jumping off point for a discussion.
When I say "toyed with", I simply mean that I combined thoughts from several published articles about education as profession, not just dreamed up something of my own.
You obviously lack respect for teachers and are trying to justify it. You can't change the definition of a word. You can post your reasons for thinking as you do, but you can't pretend they are anything other then your opinion.
I see what you mean, OP. Teaching isn't like anything in the medical realm--even massage therapy--where practitioners are required to take Continuing Ed courses to maintain their license. Lawyers, too. OTOH, there are plenty of "professions" that don't require that. AFAIK, engineers aren't required to take CE classes.
Teachers tend to improve simply as they gain experience. But there are also the slackers, who, once they reach a level of competence, do the least amount necessary to get by. I've visited schools, though, that send their teachers to schools around the country, to observe innovative teaching techniques, and bring new ideas home with them, to implement in the classroom. I suppose that's rare, though.
In our district, teachers go through quite a lot of professional development. They probably spend something like 8-10 days every year on it.
In every profession there will be slackers. In every profession there will be people who go above and beyond. That doesn't explain why the OP doesn't respect teachers.
Well I didn't seek out training as an engineer either. I got my masters degree to get a promotion. Any training I got beyond that was provided by the company to make me more valuable to them (they paid for my masters degree too). Training is not the best measure of dedication to your field. I learned more in both engineering and teaching on the job and doing my own research than I did in training classes with the exception of my first three years teaching when I did a boatload of training on classroom management. Now I pretty much know what is taught in training I take because of the research I've done on my own or previous training and experience so I only take the training I need to renew my cert unless something is really interesting to me.
Ivory, when you were a practicing engineer, were you not in ACS (or another appropriate professional society)? Did you publish, do research that furthered your field of engineering?
So put me in the disagree column.
I think the reason that teachers are disrespected is that we don't value education in this country. We view it as something done to us as children. Teachers are perceived to have control over students by students. I think most people exit school with a general dislike for teachers. Which makes sense given that in school we are taught things that are not immediately valuable to us. It's not like learning a trade you can immediately apply to earn money. You're taught stuff you see no real need for.
Interesting. While true we don't value education in this country as much as we should, why is that? Who educates the people that in turn don't value that education? I don't think most people exit school with a general dislike of teachers. But many of us have had so many bad teachers compared to the good ones that we have more of a "trust but verify" attitude. I could count the outstanding teachers I had on one hand, with some fingers left over. But the bad ones would need fingers and toes. That proportion of outstanding, good, bad, is something a teaching profession can have a huge effect over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by history nerd
But so are many teachers... Or does membership and active contribution to to professional organizations and unions not count in our profession for some reason? Professional organizations, yes, unions no. Unions tend to be associated with a trade mentality, not professions. Do the unpaid clubs I sponsor after school not count for some reason? Nope. That's volunteer work not contribution to the profession. Just like the time I spend volunteering with youth clubs does not contribute to my profession. Do the hours I spend keeping up to date on the latest research in both educational study and my chosen subfields (history, poli-sci,economics, geography, sociology) not count? Partially, but what are you contributing back to the profession; to the body of knowledge used in the profession. Keeping current is a part of any trade or profession -- a necessary but not a sufficient condition if you will.
What contributions do you think teachers should be making that they are not currently?
Leadership for one. If teachers have the best knowledge of what is and is not effective in education, then they can provide that knowledge and leadership through professional actions. That's not the same as union contributions to political campaigns. That's done to curry favor for political actions that support the unions and their members, not to inform the public and politicians on education policies.
Ah, and so we come once again to economics and incentive, the driver of all human endeavor.
The way I see it is that every job has three main kinds of incentives. Financial compensation, time and benefits, and personal satisfaction (sometimes labeled as enjoyment or social value). In my opinion you can sort of imagine them as the points of a triangle. Each job lies at a point somewhere in that triangle. You can have a good balance of things, a lot of one, or any combination... but you can not have it all.
I have a lot of close friends that work in similar careers to your own... and many of them do similar types of things to what you describe here. And do you know why? It's because they have a strong incentive to. They make much better money than I do and some even have free time... But they don't feel valuable. That is their incentive.
On the other hand we teachers live somewhere on that Value-Time line. We are full up on feeling like we are contributing to society what we lack is money. Let's take this and run with it. If your model is correct that it is all about incentives, primarily money, and you say your friends are better compensated for that they do, then while you may feel "full up" on contribution to society, then clearly society does not agree on the value. Please note, this is your model, not mine, we're talking about here. So if your model is correct, what should teaching as a profession do to change that position on the value curve?
I've noted on other threads that I think teacher pay should be in the same ball park as what an individual with those credentials could make on the market. But this would mean a lot of changes in how teachers view compensation because their compensation would differ greatly based on field. And would have to be held to the same kinds of standards are other professions.
Luckily for me I have a wife who makes good money, no children, and no debt. I have lots of time to attend classes and better my craft... But what about my co-worker who is a single father of four. Are you really telling me that instead of running a house painting business during the summer that he should act more professional? Or my friend who is trying to pay rent and debt in a difficult economy who teaches first grade all day, tutors after, and then waits tables all night to pay bills?
No, I'm not trying to tell your friends what they should or should not do. Merely pointing out that to accomplish A requires doing steps B, C, and D.
People respond to incentives. Not all incentives are monetary ones but they all matter. Agreed
IMHO this is a false dichotomy. I know plenty of people in what are usually considered to be trades such as mechanics, plumbers etc. that are highly involved in professional organizations, educational outreach, political activism dealing with their job, and leadership within their fields. I also know plenty of lawyers, doctors, engineers etc. who do none of what you describe.
So do I. But it's not about what some individuals do. It's about what the profession as a whole does and how it responds. Right now teaching does not respond like a profession. Even this discussion here. We just wouldn't be having it in most fields. There the discussion would be about specific details and how to improve the profession.
The profession/trade division is a outdated bougie concept devised to give certain types of white collar workers a pat on the back and delude themselves into thinking they are somehow superior to the working man.
It's still a valid approach to discussing how people view the relationship between themselves, what they do, and how they are employed.
I think teachers get scapegoated over general societal ills, are expected to pick up the slack where parenting and communities fail children, and are criticized when this turns out to be unrealistic, and I think that is more the root of disrespect than whether or not professional development is done as the result of mandate.
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