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Very frequently children, even very young ones, have an impulse towards playing a certain instrument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
Exactly. At ages 3 and 4, even 5, with the exception of unusually gifted children, kids aren't toddling around demanding to learn to play violin. Most don't even know what a violin is, at 3 and 4.
When I was 4, I had no desire to play an instrument.
When I was 8, in 4th grade, we were offered instrument lessons and I choose drums, which I still play several decades later. My parents were glad for me to take music lessons, but I don't think that drums would have been their first choice. Fortunately, my instructor had first-year students get practice pads rather than snare drums, so parents were spared the cacophony of rookie drumming.
As the OP mentioned, there are all kinds of positives and negatives with the Suzuki method, which started out in Japan as a music method for the violin and later some disciples applied to piano. Whether you play Suzuki or not, there are all types of sizes for string instruments, including the smallest, which is called quarter size. Itzhak Perlman started at age 4, I think and Issac Stern started very young as well. Itzhak said that he was drawn to this instrument at a very young age. Of course, he is not the norm.
I had suggested that some of the students' behavior could be cultural. I don't know if the parents stay throughout the lesson or just come to drop off and pick up their child. I assume if it is a 4 year old, they stay the entire time (and part of the Suzuki method is that the parent practices along side their child and participates in the lesson). I don't want to offend anyone, but certain cultures have a different value on boundaries than Americans. The parents don't see anything wrong with their child exploring a stranger's home or helping themselves without permission to touch personal belongings. "Back home," their homes or apartments are crowded with people all the time and the children are allowed to roam as they please." They do have discipline, it's just done differently. If these kids are new to the US, they may engage in this type of behavior and the parents just ignore it. Of course, the OP has not confirmed or denied any of this. This is just speculation why the OP has these behavioral problems. On the other end of the spectrum, it has been my experience that Japanese children will bow to the teacher when they enter and constrain their movements.
It may be that when the OP started back in 1962 most of her students were American, but as we have become more global and colleges started hiring more international personnel, more of the students will not be from this country and there will be cultural clashes.
BTW at age 2, my favorite thing in the world to do was to "play" the piano in the living room and I begged my mother to teach me, but I didn't start formal lessons with an outside teacher until I was 7.
BTW there are several games on the market geared for preschoolers involving playing CDs of instruments which have to be matched to their pictures on cards. The New York Philharmonic has special concerts just for preschoolers and other concerts for elementary school aged children.
I was introduced to the instruments of the orchestra by listening to Leonard Bernstein's record of Peter and the Wolf, as well as a recording of Tubby the Tuba. If the parents of the OP's students teach at the local university, I would speculate that they are very pro-education, including introducing their children to music at a very young age. So I don't think it's unusual for a 3 year old to be able to identify different instruments and recognize their sound quality and have a favorite. However, starting formal lessons on a specific instrument as a preschooler is often controversial. The only one that I think is possible (but still controversial) is the violin because it can be scaled down to fit a young child. My cellist friend tells me that quarter-sized cellos are ridiculous and sound lousy.
BTW at age 2, my favorite thing in the world to do was to "play" the piano in the living room and I begged my mother to teach me, but I didn't start formal lessons with an outside teacher until I was 7.
The piano is a very different instrument. It's much easier to learn to play, in some respects. It doesn't take as high a level of physical coordination, as a violin. In fact, some music instructors encourage parents to have the child begin their music studies with the piano, before moving on to certain other instruments. There are a number of reasons for that. It's not at all unusual for small children to become interested in the piano, if there's one in the home.
The smallest is not a quarter size! Most four-year-olds start on a 1/16th. And there is even a tiny 1/32nd, though they really aren't playable and are relatively hard to find.
From the Violin/Viola FAQ:
Quote:
Violins come in "fractional sizes" (4/4, 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, even a tiny 1/32). The 4/4 is full size, suitable for nearly all adults. The 7/8 size is rather rare, and only available in the more expensive instruments. It is frequently used by adults who are very petite.
Violas: While violins come in fractional sizes, violas are measured in inches (17", 16 1/2", 16", 15", 14", 13", 12"). For students changing from violin to viola, or adding viola after studying violin, the 14" viola is approximately the same size as a full size violin. Many violists start on violin.
The 16" is the usual adult size. Any size above the 16" may be difficult to handle for young people and is probably not recommended. Viola length is measured in centimeters in Europe (41cm, 41.5cm and 42cm), and there is no exact standard with respect to size. Many professional violists play a 17" viola; Michael Tree (of the Guarneri Quartet)***, Bruno Giuranna, Gerard Coussè.
The viola is a fifth lower in pitch than the violin; the lowest string on the viola is the C string. The viola's second string, the G, is the violin's lowest string. Violas have no E string, the top string on violin. The A=440 (the violin's second string), is the top string on viola. The viola is primarily written in the alto clef (though high registers may be written in treble, like the violin). See:
• Violin/Viola Ranges and how to tune the instrument
• Viola Fingerboard Chart
The violin and viola étude repertoire is much the same, with additional works in viola by Fuchs, Campagnoli and others. Some of the literature for violin has been transcribed for viola (and visa versa), but viola literature is quite different. See: Advanced Viola Literature
Note that the viola is "not just a big violin." Violists will have you assassinated if you even think that. Playing the viola requires a very different touch, different fingerings, different position work, different vibrato, and an entirely different mindset with respect to its role in the orchestral and chamber music repertoire. Violists are very sensitive about this.
There are also Suzuki books and teacher training for piano, as you mentioned, and also for viola, cello, bass, guitar, flute, recorder. Summer Suzuki Institutes, Suzuki programs at universities (and sometimes privately owned ones) and Suzuki training offered in university in conjunction with a performance degree also offer such classes as fiddle (and other folk instruments), music theory, ensemble classes, and all sorts of pedagogy courses for teachers (e.g., "Changing from violin to viola").
Suzuki method REQUIRES that whoever supervises the home practice must be at the lesson. They take notes and learn along with the child. In formal programs the adult buys or rents an adult size violin and takes sometimes several months of lessons prior to the child starting. It's very different from the old-fashioned drop the kid(s) off and pick them up after the lesson.
""" Michael Tree passed away last week. He was the son of my teacher at Manhattan School of Music, Samuel Applebaum.
Last edited by KaraZetterberg153; 05-07-2018 at 02:40 PM..
BTW there are several games on the market geared for preschoolers involving playing CDs of instruments which have to be matched to their pictures on cards. The New York Philharmonic has special concerts just for preschoolers and other concerts for elementary school aged children.
I was introduced to the instruments of the orchestra by listening to Leonard Bernstein's record of Peter and the Wolf, as well as a recording of Tubby the Tuba. If the parents of the OP's students teach at the local university, I would speculate that they are very pro-education, including introducing their children to music at a very young age. So I don't think it's unusual for a 3 year old to be able to identify different instruments and recognize their sound quality and have a favorite. However, starting formal lessons on a specific instrument as a preschooler is often controversial. The only one that I think is possible (but still controversial) is the violin because it can be scaled down to fit a young child. My cellist friend tells me that quarter-sized cellos are ridiculous and sound lousy.
Listening to the CD of the book a child is studying is a required element of the training, and has been from the beginning. The listening element, in other words, is an integral part of the student's education and each Suzuki book comes with a CD. Dr. Suzuki recommended that students listen to the CD 50 times a day! There are 10 Suzuki books for violin and the last two are Mozart concerti, so teachers find their own recordings of those works (for the last two books).
Leonard Bernstein was also responsible for a series of television programs, the Young Peoples' Concerts on black and white tv, aired in the '60's and the reason that I and a lot of other people became musicians. You can purchase them now on Amazon, 25 programs on nine discs:
Bernstein, as I'm sure you know, conducted the New York Phil back then, and lectured on topics in classical music with the orchestra as a backdrop. He studied with Nadia Boulanger.
I would add that most if not all first, second and third tier orchestras, and other groups as well, have childrens' concerts, sometimes as many as six performances, where the public school kids are bussed in to hear the concert. It's a little hard on the musicians to play the same concert two or three times in a day, but the children make it worth it.
Last edited by KaraZetterberg153; 05-07-2018 at 03:14 PM..
I think I must be an alien of some sort. I was a violin student once, very long ago. I'm retired now, and no longer play, but there was a time......
My family had no money. But the head of the music department of a major southern college took a liking to me, and gave me private lessons. We paid on occasion; not very often, I'm afraid. And he never asked for payment.
He became like a father to me. I had no father of my own, and was obviously disadvantaged in many ways. I would do anything to please him, so I practiced and worked out the various phrases and exercises that he gave me. Many times, he would call me from the university and ask me if I would like to come in for a lesson. I mean, just out of the blue! And I would always hop on my bike and hurry over.
He gave me 2 concertos once, as I was leaving his studio. Asked me to work on them and see what I could do.
The next week he asked me to play one of them, so I did. He stopped me, and commented that I wasn't looking at the music. I could see be his expression that he was more than a little pleased when I explained that I had already memorized both pieces. To this day, that moment remains a 'data point' that I have referred to when I need to remind myself of who I am.
I played in the university orchestra at age 15 and placed well in all state competitions.
There are good students out there, and there are good teachers. For all you teachers, I urge you to be on the lookout. My violin teacher from 1960 had a profound effect on my life. As I told his daughters when he died, I have always tried to live my life in a manner that would meet with his approval.
I remember that song. Very, very sweet and it makes me cry, too. I've made it my business in life to teach the minority kids, treating them with respect, to not charge too much, and to provide reasonably priced but good instruments. I've taken a lot of criticism for that and I am not rich, but I am happy.
For all the criticism of Suzuki, he talked about love all the time. Like any great historical figure, he is frequently misunderstood and misinterpreted, and I'm not sure that he would be happy with the behaviors of all of his many followers. But that is to be expected.
I don't feel cynical or distrustful about his motivations; he wanted to provide happiness to children after the terrible carnage of the second World War. And not just Japanese children, though that is where it started. If you want to return to original sources, read his book, Nurtured with Love:
Thank you for correcting me about the violin size. As you can see, I am not a string player. I had forgotten about the small sizes and didn't remember which size fits certain children. I do know that Suzuki has been applied to other instruments in addition to strings, including flute. Personally, I am not a fan of the methodology, but like in other subjects areas, one size-methodology does not fit every student. We have a variety of pedagogic practices and if you regularly read this forum, we have debated the strengths and weaknesses of the different approaches in many disciplines besides music.
I have specialized training and certification in another type of music methodology and to be fair, I never trained in Suzuki so my perception may be inaccurate. I like to be open minded.
For the person who repped me and left me a comment about the children running amok all over the OP's house, the OP never said that she didn't speak to the parents about the children's behavior. She just complained about it. As others have pointed out, the OP has not provided us with full information about her students. I was just speculating about the reasons for their behavior, but as I said previously, I was not there and gave a possible reason as cultural differences. I have no idea if this is true or false and this was pure conjecture. If so, you can speak to the parents, but if their culture has a different perspective on boundaries, you can't expect much help from the parents. The advantage to being a private teacher is that you can choose your students, unlike public school teachers who must accept everybody.
Thank you for correcting me about the violin size. As you can see, I am not a string player. I had forgotten about the small sizes and didn't remember which size fits certain children. I do know that Suzuki has been applied to other instruments in addition to strings, including flute. Personally, I am not a fan of the methodology, but like in other subjects areas, one size-methodology does not fit every student. We have a variety of pedagogic practices and if you regularly read this forum, we have debated the strengths and weaknesses of the different approaches in many disciplines besides music.
I have specialized training and certification in another type of music methodology and to be fair, I never trained in Suzuki so my perception may be inaccurate. I like to be open minded.
For the person who repped me and left me a comment about the children running amok all over the OP's house, the OP never said that she didn't speak to the parents about the children's behavior. She just complained about it. As others have pointed out, the OP has not provided us with full information about her students. I was just speculating about the reasons for their behavior, but as I said previously, I was not there and gave a possible reason as cultural differences. I have no idea if this is true or false and this was pure conjecture. If so, you can speak to the parents, but if their culture has a different perspective on boundaries, you can't expect much help from the parents. The advantage to being a private teacher is that you can choose your students, unlike public school teachers who must accept everybody.
Children are not running amok all over my house. My cat is in the bedroom and they have to walk through the bedroom to get to the bathroom. It's a nice, old house, built the year I was born (1950).
Coney, the following is not directed at you:
I posted my list of concerns on several string-teacher-related forums, and I was not criticized. Sometimes people like to gaslight, harass, denigrate, talk down to, irrespective of content. Nothing they post has any value because the tenor of what they write is vitriolic, no matter where they post. So if I don't respond to someone it's probably because you're being disrespectful, and not once, but as a consistent, observable pattern. And also not because you merely disagree with me: it's the WAY you disagree, by being unpleasant. One wonders if the lack of social skills carry into real life.
I don't feel obliged to justify my remarks to someone who is rude to me. Only a masochist or a fool would.
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