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Old 06-17-2009, 05:08 PM
Status: "Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in." (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
15,755 posts, read 14,161,868 times
Reputation: 14526
IvoryTickler, the group I'm most familiar with is trying to start a K-12. I'm friends with a couple BoD members of it, in fact they asked me to serve on it for political reasons, but I punted that to someone else. These parents have the idea that the local school system isn't serving their kids (it's ranked 2/3 in the state) and quite honestly the reason for that is that the kids, and parents, don't get their way at the public school. The biggest gripe is with the public's theater program, their kids don't get picked as the leads (each of the 4 high schools have nationally recognized theater programs). Their other gripe is with the Math and Science programs. For reference the system has a planetarium and related astronomy courses that go with that in addition to a fairly extensive Math/Science curriculum. My oldest son graduated with AP Physics, AP Chem, and both Calculus AB and BC. Both my daughters were in AP English, Euro History, Psych and Chem. All three kids were involved in theater, also. Mostly as Tech (son and 2nd daughter were respectively King and Queen of Tech) while their older sister directed as did 2nd daughter. As it is the County school board has refused to authorize the charter, a MD requirement, due to a lack of the long term business plan I mentioned earlier and the lack of a facility. The parents are miffed because they want their program forward funded without those pieces in place and that isn't going to happen.

Why are teachers flocking to Michigan? Your unemployment rate is horrendous and you're bleeding people to other states. States like PA produce more teachers than can be absorbed in the state and many of them end up here in MD/VA/DC/DE.

Last edited by North Beach Person; 06-17-2009 at 05:14 PM.. Reason: added a question
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Virginia
5,028 posts, read 6,134,177 times
Reputation: 1720
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Given teachers flock to Michigan, I doubt we're unique. I'm in a charter and charter's don't pay their teachers but so many teachers come here looking for work, you have to get in line for anything in a district.

I was in a training class last week (had to pay for that myself too) and most of the teachers were complaining about the same things I do. No funding, lack of facilities, lack of materials...etc, etc, etc...

It's time to cut my losses and move on.
Ok. Serious questions here, I am not trying to be tough:
What would happen if you didn't go to the training class? Was it one that the school made you go to? If there is something they want us to go to, it is either during contract hours, or they pay us a stipend. You say other teachers were there. What would they do if the majority of you said, "Um, no. I'm busy that day" or, "I'm not paying for it"? If the most of the teachers are supplementing the schools by paying for materials out of pocket, what would happen if most said, "No"?

We all go beyond in one way or other. We put in extra hours, attend trainings and classes, etc. Now, I'm not in a big union state by any means, but it seems that what I am hearing is a bunch of grumbling about things such as paying for materials and paying for trainings, followed by reasons why you feel you have to cover these things. Is it contractual that you pay for these things, or is it that you just feel you should?
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:37 PM
Status: "Humming "Suicide is painless"" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Whoville....
21,289 posts, read 15,087,377 times
Reputation: 10768
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
IvoryTickler, the group I'm most familiar with is trying to start a K-12. I'm friends with a couple BoD members of it, in fact they asked me to serve on it for political reasons, but I punted that to someone else. These parents have the idea that the local school system isn't serving their kids (it's ranked 2/3 in the state) and quite honestly the reason for that is that the kids, and parents, don't get their way at the public school. The biggest gripe is with the public's theater program, their kids don't get picked as the leads (each of the 4 high schools have nationally recognized theater programs). Their other gripe is with the Math and Science programs. For reference the system has a planetarium and related astronomy courses that go with that in addition to a fairly extensive Math/Science curriculum. My oldest son graduated with AP Physics, AP Chem, and both Calculus AB and BC. Both my daughters were in AP English, Euro History, Psych and Chem. All three kids were involved in theater, also. Mostly as Tech (son and 2nd daughter were respectively King and Queen of Tech) while their older sister directed as did 2nd daughter. As it is the County school board has refused to authorize the charter, a MD requirement, due to a lack of the long term business plan I mentioned earlier and the lack of a facility. The parents are miffed because they want their program forward funded without those pieces in place and that isn't going to happen.

Why are teachers flocking to Michigan? Your unemployment rate is horrendous and you're bleeding people to other states. States like PA produce more teachers than can be absorbed in the state and many of them end up here in MD/VA/DC/DE.
Those kinds of parents end up leaving charters after a year or two when they find out that they don't cater to them either. They are one of the reasons we see the high attrition rates we do for students. If you're not leaving to solve a real problem, you're probably going to get tired of driving your child to school.

I moved my kids because my daughter could not deal with Everyday Mathematics and our local school district had made a 5 year committment to the program. We stayed at the charter beyond that because my kids were settled there and the G&T program served my youngest well. We will not stay for high school. The high school seems to attract struggling students. Not that they don't need a place to go but my kids are not struggling. I feel kind of bad because I attribute my children's success to the charter but they won't be graduating from the charter.

K-12 is tough. The reasons parents of elementary school students might choose to move their kids are different than the reasons high school student's parents might choose to move their kids. At the elementary level, it seems to be because a child needs special attention they're not getting or for a stronger academic program. For high school it's often because of issues like violence, poor quality schools or a child who has washed out, flunked out or been kicked out of the public schools. As I said, you have to look at the demographics of the students feeding into the school.

I wouldn't sit on a board without many years of experience. I wouldn't want the job of juggling everything you need to juggle to run a school. It just bothers me to see over 30% of the budget going to administration and not enough spent on the classroom.
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:46 PM
Status: "Humming "Suicide is painless"" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Whoville....
21,289 posts, read 15,087,377 times
Reputation: 10768
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
IvoryTickler, the group I'm most familiar with is trying to start a K-12. I'm friends with a couple BoD members of it, in fact they asked me to serve on it for political reasons, but I punted that to someone else. These parents have the idea that the local school system isn't serving their kids (it's ranked 2/3 in the state) and quite honestly the reason for that is that the kids, and parents, don't get their way at the public school. The biggest gripe is with the public's theater program, their kids don't get picked as the leads (each of the 4 high schools have nationally recognized theater programs). Their other gripe is with the Math and Science programs. For reference the system has a planetarium and related astronomy courses that go with that in addition to a fairly extensive Math/Science curriculum. My oldest son graduated with AP Physics, AP Chem, and both Calculus AB and BC. Both my daughters were in AP English, Euro History, Psych and Chem. All three kids were involved in theater, also. Mostly as Tech (son and 2nd daughter were respectively King and Queen of Tech) while their older sister directed as did 2nd daughter. As it is the County school board has refused to authorize the charter, a MD requirement, due to a lack of the long term business plan I mentioned earlier and the lack of a facility. The parents are miffed because they want their program forward funded without those pieces in place and that isn't going to happen.

Why are teachers flocking to Michigan? Your unemployment rate is horrendous and you're bleeding people to other states. States like PA produce more teachers than can be absorbed in the state and many of them end up here in MD/VA/DC/DE.
Because if you can get into a district, we're one of the highest paying states. So, competition for teaching jobs is fierce. The university recommended I leave the state. In fact, they told me to consider leaving the country. There are other countries that would value my previous engineering experience with me teaching (it's more often a determent here.). Unfortunately, I never did learn a second language so my options are limited here.

You are correct that Michigan graduates more teachers than it needs but our high pay, in district, still attracts people from other states. Surprisingly, people are still moving here from other states as well. There are just more leaving than coming. Often a job will go to someone from another state who had a job there rather than someone unemployed here.
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:54 PM
Status: "Humming "Suicide is painless"" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Whoville....
21,289 posts, read 15,087,377 times
Reputation: 10768
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgbwc View Post
Ok. Serious questions here, I am not trying to be tough:
What would happen if you didn't go to the training class? Was it one that the school made you go to? If there is something they want us to go to, it is either during contract hours, or they pay us a stipend. You say other teachers were there. What would they do if the majority of you said, "Um, no. I'm busy that day" or, "I'm not paying for it"? If the most of the teachers are supplementing the schools by paying for materials out of pocket, what would happen if most said, "No"?

We all go beyond in one way or other. We put in extra hours, attend trainings and classes, etc. Now, I'm not in a big union state by any means, but it seems that what I am hearing is a bunch of grumbling about things such as paying for materials and paying for trainings, followed by reasons why you feel you have to cover these things. Is it contractual that you pay for these things, or is it that you just feel you should?
The school didn't order me to go to the training. They were delighted I was interested in it but wouldn't cover the cost. Fortunately, this one was pretty reasonable.

It's not contractual I cover them. I need to cover them to do my job well. I guess I could just settle for doing a crappy job and then blame it on the school . Actually, I can't do that. I'm either going to do this right or not at all but I consider it unfair they pay me very low wages, give me nothing in the way of benefits or a retirement package and don't supply what I need in the classroom or the training I need to do the job well. The only reason they keep teachers is there is a glut of teachers so they get away with it. They know they can just replace us with someone else. It's time for me to let them.
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:56 PM
Status: "Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in." (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
15,755 posts, read 14,161,868 times
Reputation: 14526
You know, and I don't know your situation really, but engineers are in demand in this area for all kinds of specialties. You almost can't turn around without bumping into an engineer-from civil to maritime to aero to mechanical to you name it. The federal government is always hiring you guys/gals.


How does your charter stay authorized with the deficits you describe? I would think they would still have to follow minimum state standards and with NCLB those have been raised.

Last edited by North Beach Person; 06-17-2009 at 07:58 PM.. Reason: added
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:15 PM
Status: "Humming "Suicide is painless"" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Whoville....
21,289 posts, read 15,087,377 times
Reputation: 10768
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
You know, and I don't know your situation really, but engineers are in demand in this area for all kinds of specialties. You almost can't turn around without bumping into an engineer-from civil to maritime to aero to mechanical to you name it. The federal government is always hiring you guys/gals.


How does your charter stay authorized with the deficits you describe? I would think they would still have to follow minimum state standards and with NCLB those have been raised.
The government doesn't get into the day to day running of a school. They look at test scores and graduation rates. As long as a school is improving, they leave them alone.

Where are you that engineers are in demand? I know several engineers who have been looking nationwide for jobs for over a year. And I've asked my brother, who happens to work for the government and he tells me they are not hiring engineers.
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:25 PM
 
Location: So Cal
23,209 posts, read 16,789,173 times
Reputation: 21838
Quote:
Originally Posted by socrates View Post
lets say they start at 30k but they only work 180 days thats half the year so really teachers start off making 60k. Experienced teachers make 50k thats six figures. Am I missing something?
To me its seems like they don't make that much money for all of the education you have to have. I know I don't have as much education as teachers and I pull down a good chunk more than many teachers.
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Mid-Atlantic
1,810 posts, read 2,448,644 times
Reputation: 1841
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
You know, and I don't know your situation really, but engineers are in demand in this area for all kinds of specialties. You almost can't turn around without bumping into an engineer-from civil to maritime to aero to mechanical to you name it. The federal government is always hiring you guys/gals.


How does your charter stay authorized with the deficits you describe? I would think they would still have to follow minimum state standards and with NCLB those have been raised.
North Beach-where in MD are you? My husband is an Engineer and his company folded in Baltimore-Pharm company. We were living on the Eastern Shore and he searched high and low for an Engineering job,as did his head hunters with no luck. None.
Has almost 20 years and an MS in Mechanical and another BS in Packaging... We had to relocate unfortunately.
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Old 06-17-2009, 09:00 PM
 
1,122 posts, read 1,215,353 times
Reputation: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by asugraduate View Post
Most people also assume that teachers work only 8:30-3:30 or whatever time the kids are at school. I know I typically work 10 hour days as well as bringing work home evenings and weekends. The pay wouldn't seem so low if my job responsibilities were a little more reasonable. Teachers do a lot of work on their own time in order to make things run more smoothly for them and their students in the classroom. It would be great to make overtime for this, but that is not the reality of our payscale.
What occupation doesn't require this? You may say..."but what about the obnoxious kids and parents..." which can be countered with "What about the more obnoxious adults that the customer services reps at walmart deal with all day long?" Wanna trade? I think not.

Weekends off. All holidays off. Sick days are allowed. Summer off. Tenure vs competitive environment that inspires faster growth.

Teachers have it easy when you look at like this. It's easy money, I don't care what any one of them say. I have tutored teachers screw up and fixed more than one of their problem students. I have taught groups of kids larger than their classes ever would be with them learning more in a half hour than they'd learn all day in school. They get easy outs by branding students that they feel challenge them too much and are allowed to press to have our children on ADHD drugs if THEY are inconvenienced.

Dang, if I had a job where I was allowed to pass the buck on difficult clients, if my husband sold flawed products with an "Oh well, its not my problem once they leave my classroom, er I mean, business," and we never would dream of putting our "worst case we've ever seen of ADHD kids" on any mind alterning drugs.

PLUS, all this so called psychologist cookie development timeline that all children have to force their minds shape into just takes what makes a special kid special away from them.

I know good teachers. But they never complain about the pay, the benefits or the hours. They have good days and bad days. They get attached to their kids and cry at the end of the year having to see them go. They take promising students aside when they go astray to try and get in their head to help them. The things out of their mouths are so inspiring that even the least likely to succeed of students sits up and listens. Instead of being in the teachers lounge eating with fellow students, they are in their classrooms or with the stundents, always wanting to be available for any student who might need them, or to catch a moment that will put a smile on their face for the rest of the week.

But sadly, teaching has gone to this its all about me attitude with far too many teachers. When I hear it, I am completely turned off to them. No sympthay, just a, your the reason we homeschool runs through my head. When I say I homeschool to these type of teachers, they are SO negative about it, saying I couldn't POSSIBLY be as intelligent or as qualified as they are.

Not all teachers are like this, but the number is increasing. To those teachers who spend a lot of time whinning about this, well try this teachers: Teach your students three times as many subjects as a school would normally, run a family business (marking and design, emailing, receptionist, accountant, website builder and maintainer, researcher, sales, make some products yourself, ect), be the family helper/supporter, helping out everywhere and anywhere, driving an hour or more at a drop of a hat when needed, dance, music lessons, other classes, tutor struggling students when they are not in class without pay, take care of your friends pets who lives 40 minutes away every other weekend, AND have a 50 hour a week job on top of it all, including driving 2 1/2 hours away for 2-4 days every two-three weeks and STILL have your top student be ahead by four grades and still be able to provide them with the challenge they need. THEN add the stresses, Aunt dies, another aunt dies, your MIL dies, your dog dies, your sister has a baby AND leaves her husband, just as you find out he's been abusive, you find out you've been stalked online for 11 years, all within a few months. Until you can handle all of that with no more than $35,000 a year and without a breakdown, quit your whinning.

Sorry. No empathy for the complainers who want more money. They can't prove they earn a raise because the students aren't all that bright compared with other countries, yet somehow think they deserve pay where at any other job they'd be denied weekends, holidays AND the entire summer with no sick days allowed, and would be weeded out by competitive selection, sitting wondering if their emotional self should seek a more meaningful job.

For the few good teachers, I am all for them getting more pay. But until we see more consistant results as a whole, there should be no reward for bad results.
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