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While the motive may be different in different districts the results are the same.
Perhaps I misled you. My dad taught in a largely rich district in NJ. I teach in a largely military district in TX. We didn't teach in the same district.
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Originally Posted by NCyank
And this is why I think teachers (as a profession) can't really claim to be noble. Sure, there are some out there, and maybe they used to be as a profession but certainly not anymore. They tolerate bad policy (bad for the teachers and worse yet, bad for the students) and play a game of "I'll scratch your back..." with admins and school boards while failure rates increase and we are dumbing down education.
Let's say that you work at a job, doing 40 hours per week at a salary of $50,000. The work you do from week to week is pretty much the same... you know what to expect and it becomes a pretty certain deal that you will make your salary for an amount of work already known and determined to be acceptable by you.
Now suppose your bosses started heaping more work onto you... or they started raising their expectations of you... without raising your salary. The expectations added onto you do not have a measurable effect on the outcome of your work... and if anything they have a DETRIMENTAL effect on the outcome of your work. Wouldn't you be irritated? Wouldn't you feel put out? Wouldn't you start looking for ways that you could scratch the boss's back in return for him letting you off the hook with some of that extra garbage?
That's exactly how it is with teachers. The nature of the basics of their jobs is stressful. Few teachers wouldn't feel stress even if there were no expectations of them other than "teach actively and try to ensure your students' learning". So, throw extra expectations at them... especially expectations that don't have any effect on your teaching whatsoever except to make you mad that you have to waste your time doing paperwork or whatever... and they will try to get out of doing that work.
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Originally Posted by NCyank
They don't want to rock the boat and really, they don't have to. They can blame the policy on local, state and federal guidelines. They don't have the authority to make change but they don't demand changes either.
There are few times when a teacher demands change that that request is granted. The principal has the final say. My wife's school is notoriously bad for that... the principal does things his way and there isn't a person in the building who can change his mind. Teachers have tried and he just says "no- we're doing it my way". After enough of that, and especially since there are only so many changes that can be made while keeping to the aforementioned governmental guidelines, teachers know that their efforts are futile so they stop trying.
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Originally Posted by NCyank
And then they can also blame the parents...if only parents would be more engaged. HA!! The only people who matter less to a school board than teachers are probably the parents. Is it any wonder parents are not engaged?
Frankly, the fact that parents don't matter to the school board is not the issue. The issue is that parents should do whatever they can to ensure that their kids succeed... which includes scholastic success. Parents who don't care are the ones who aren't engaged and whose kids wind up on drugs or in jail. Parents should be engaged for their kids... and not for the school board.
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Originally Posted by NCyank
IME the admins don't really care what parents want or what is best for student...they care about kids passing tests at the end of the year which is not an equal to providing a quality education.
This is because their jobs depend upon students passing those tests. If your income and your ability to support your family depended upon one outcome, wouldn't you do whatever you could to ensure that outcome?
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Originally Posted by NCyank
Students are like cattle being fattened up for sale at the end of the year and teachers are there to fatten them up.
It is frustrating...and I don't think we can give teachers a pass anymore (just as parents aren't given a pass). If they KNOW things need to change for them to be a more effective teacher, if they KNOW bad policy leads to lower results, wasted time and resources with little to show for it, if they KNOW they are being shackled and unable to truly teach then they should be shouting the loudest.
If you shouted loudly enough for the Arizona Cardinals at this last Super Bowl, you would've ended up with.......... a busted voice. They still wouldn't have won the game. That's why we've stopped yelling. When we yell to the administrators, they claim "government policy" or "district policy" and then what can we do? We could yell to the superintendent and then he'd plead government policy as well! I've complained about how little time we get to finalize and post grades... I was told "this is handled at the district level- they set the policy for all of the schools because Technology Services has to do this all at once". I've complained about the ridiculous focus on sports at my high school... I've been told "This is Texas... people love their football... and for some of these kids, sports are the only thing keeping them in school. We have to support them." (SUPPORT, not DEIFY...!!!!)
I even believe that it is illegal for teachers to strike just because they don't like certain working conditions at their school (so long as those conditions aren't illegal). Exactly how loudly can we yell?
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Originally Posted by NCyank
They are on the frontlines...they should be working with the parents, not siding in silence with admins at the school board meetings.
The parents are usually cooperative. The problem is that they will elect school board people based upon their political party affiliation and not based upon their educational philosophy.
What's to understand? You posted a personal attack against a child. Way to go, Teach. Well done.
Yes, we think so.
Well, not knowing the child under discussion, it would be difficult to attack anyone personally. As we do on CD, we attack concepts. There are way too many children in school whose parents have decided they are 'gifted' and 'special' and need to be treated in a special way. This creates in the child a whiny, me first attitude that poisons a classroom. I feel for the teachers in the kind of upper middle class neighborhoods who deal with 24 of these, yes, bratlings who have been told since they were old enough to walk that they are somehow more important, more unique than any other child. For the most part...they aren't.
Well, not knowing the child under discussion, it would be difficult to attack anyone personally.
:ointing to post 102::
And yet...you did. You obviously have skills, Mini.
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Originally Posted by mimimomx3
As we do on CD, we attack concepts. There are way too many children in school whose parents have decided they are 'gifted' and 'special' and need to be treated in a special way. This creates in the child a whiny, me first attitude that poisons a classroom. I feel for the teachers in the kind of upper middle class neighborhoods who deal with 24 of these, yes, bratlings who have been told since they were old enough to walk that they are somehow more important, more unique than any other child.
Yeah. It's far easier for certain kinds of teachers to teach in neighborhoods where the parents are less educated themselves, maybe don't speak fluent English. They're far less likely to insist on their child(ren)'s right to an appropriate education, more easily intimidated by someone with an inflated sense of authority.
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Yeah. It's far easier for certain kinds of teachers to teach in neighborhoods where the parents are less educated themselves, maybe don't speak fluent English. They're far less likely to insist on their child(ren)'s right to an appropriate education, more easily intimidated by someone with an inflated sense of authority.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. First of all, when dealing with parents with whom you cannot communicate, you're on your own as far as getting the kid to do what he/she is supposed to do. I have a student who was classified as being "talented and gifted" in science, but yet she fails lots of things in my class and barely squeaks out a passing grade by the end of the marking period. She also rarely speaks up in class. I cannot speak with her parents because her mom speaks only Korean and I don't know about her dad (he isn't around whenever I try to call).
Parents who are less likely to insist on their children having an appropriate education are also far less likely to be engaged in their children's lives. You can bet your next paycheck that the parent who'd get on a teacher's case for not doing his/her job would also get on his/her children's cases for not doing their work and/or misbehaving. Sometimes I'd rather have that, since these days teachers can't give misbehaving students a whipping in school. At least some parents are still willing to dole out the punishments at home.
Well, not knowing the child under discussion, it would be difficult to attack anyone personally. As we do on CD, we attack concepts. There are way too many children in school whose parents have decided they are 'gifted' and 'special' and need to be treated in a special way. This creates in the child a whiny, me first attitude that poisons a classroom. I feel for the teachers in the kind of upper middle class neighborhoods who deal with 24 of these, yes, bratlings who have been told since they were old enough to walk that they are somehow more important, more unique than any other child. For the most part...they aren't.
I'm sorry, but is this not every parent?? What parent does not believe their child is "special"?? What you are talking about here has absolutely nothing to do with the children or the parents; it has to do with being a properly trained professional within the field of public education. Regardless of what "class" you proclaim yourself to be, or teach, in, there will always be a few parents who feel their children are above all else. This is simple to deal with if you understand policies, procedures, guidelines, common sense and practice all of the above accordingly. . It pretty much comes down to whether or not you can handle your classroom and ALL that comes with it, some can't, which is why there is such a high turnover rate for first and second year teachers.
Oh btw.....EVERY child, at one point or another, has a whiny, me first attitude. lol
And yet...you did. You obviously have skills, Mini.
Yeah. It's far easier for certain kinds of teachers to teach in neighborhoods where the parents are less educated themselves, maybe don't speak fluent English. They're far less likely to insist on their child(ren)'s right to an appropriate education, more easily intimidated by someone with an inflated sense of authority.
No, I didn't attack anyone personally. I don't know the child discussed, much less teach them. I don't know the poster. I was speaking metaphorically. Your opinion doesn't make it so.
How very condescending of you to think that because a person is poor or doesn't speak English they can't 'insist on...an appropriate education'. Very superior of you. For the record, I think all teachers want parents who are actively engaged in their child's education. What the OP of that post said was that their child wasn't learning anything more than cutting and pasting. Unless that child was in preschool, or in a very inferior school, I believe that parent was being dismissive of the curriculum. I've known many parents (as a parent, NOT a teacher) who would drive the teacher, my child's teacher, crazy with requests for extra work and extra attention. In my opinion, that is a very bratty and egocentric attitude.
Last edited by mimimomx3; 03-02-2009 at 07:52 PM..
I'm sorry, but is this not every parent?? What parent does not believe their child is "special"?? What you are talking about here has absolutely nothing to do with the children or the parents; it has to do with being a properly trained professional within the field of public education. Regardless of what "class" you proclaim yourself to be, or teach, in, there will always be a few parents who feel their children are above all else. This is simple to deal with if you understand policies, procedures, guidelines, common sense and practice all of the above accordingly. . It pretty much comes down to whether or not you can handle your classroom and ALL that comes with it, some can't, which is why there is such a high turnover rate for first and second year teachers.
Oh btw.....EVERY child, at one point or another, has a whiny, me first attitude. lol
I think we all think our kids are special. But do we think they're more special than other people's kids? Obviously I love my children more than other people's children...but I think all children should be treated with respect and kindness.
A teacher definitely should see a child as an individual, but no one child should be any more special than any other.
Of course all children are egocentric. A teacher's- and parents'- job is to temper that. Sadly, as evidenced by the 'cheerleader mom phenomenon' not all parents do that. Texas News
Aconite: Yeah. It's far easier for certain kinds of teachers to teach in neighborhoods where the parents are less educated themselves, maybe don't speak fluent English. They're far less likely to insist on their child(ren)'s right to an appropriate education, more easily intimidated by someone with an inflated sense of authority.
How very condescending of you to think that because a person is poor or doesn't speak English they can't 'insist on...an appropriate education'. Very superior of you.
Who said anything about poverty? (Hmm...bias? Or merely a poor attempt at straw man construction?)
What I said is less educated, and don't speak fluent English. If you can't speak the language the meetings are held in, if you haven't the education to know your rights (which the schools certainly will not tell you) or to understand the legalese they are couched in-- yeah, you're at a disadvantage. It would be lovely to think schools have access to translators of Urdu, Hmong, or Huichol (or even Creole or Spanish) for every parent-teacher conference, but it doesn't happen. It's not unusual for a teen or preteen sibling to play translator in this area.
Since preteen legal savants are in short supply in most communities, that's not exactly conducive to a lengthy wrangle over whether Junior is entitled to an Individual Educational Evaluation or evaluation of his possible fine motor delays or NVLD (non-verbal learning disability).
For that matter, anything with social skills or communication components is usually written off to the language difficulty-- because, presumably, kids cannot be both autistic (or hard of hearing or CAPD) AND Guatemalan/Cambodian/whatever.
Though the schools here seem to have no problem labeling kids BH or EH without exploring the language component. Hmm...
Even failing that, though, many English-speaking parents with no legal or mental health advocacy background have no clue what should be in their child's IEP or 504 plan, or even if their child needs one. It usually takes a couple of years of Junior getting screwed over or lost in the shuffle to figure that out-- and by then, opportunity has been lost.
How do you know what I do? Why do you think I'm hostile? Because I won't agree with you that teaching is a job similar to...I don't know, running the fry machine? I never said that I think kids shouldn't think they are important and unique. EVERYONE is important and unique...but no one is more important or unique than ANYONE else. As far as me being a whiny brat, well, I disagree with you.
I think it's the name-calling. "Cheerleader mom", "thinks he's the center of the universe" and "bratling" don't usually evoke a vision of warm fuzzies. In fact-- and I may be totally off-base here, of course, but I'd categorize them as having a distinctly negative slant.
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ointing to post 102::
. It pretty much comes down to whether or not you can handle your classroom and ALL that comes with it, some can't, which is why there is such a high turnover rate for first and second year teachers.
