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Old 02-03-2013, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado
1,975 posts, read 2,348,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marie5v View Post
Unfortunately, there is so much negative propaganda that has been put out there about teacher unions, that anyone who hasn't actually worked in a school will never believe the truth. I've worked both with and without a union, and it was a million times better for everyone with one, including students. The funny thing is, my state has no teacher's union, and yet people constantly complain about how the union is ruining education here. And then when I tell them there IS no union, they don't even believe it! That's how strong the anti-union propaganda is - people see unions where there aren't any, and blame them for things that are actually being done by the government.
Unions benefit America, but there are a lot of dumb people who will fall for any right-wing propaganda. It amazes me how many Americans fall for ALEC-generated crap. American schools have been under-funded for years. People need to STOP VOTING REPUBLICAN.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:00 AM
 
2,499 posts, read 2,621,382 times
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Declan July and August =2 so how do you arrive at 9 months.

In NJ one the highest paid States for teachers the average salary is between $60-65,000 per year. The teachers pay 30% of their health care premiums and over 13% of their salary for social security and their pension. Is that an excessive compensation package?
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,469,728 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Declan's Dad View Post
Yeah unions have really benefitted Detroit and Michigan huh.

The propaganda regarding unions is coming from the left. Every time someone defends the unions they mention things like the 40 hour work week and OT pay. While these things are great they came very early on in the union movement. No one can point to anything fairly recently that unions have done to benefit anyone other than those few that run the unions. Today's unions are nothing but special interests run by thugs. The private sector is now less than 7% unionized and that number continues to dwindle. Now that many states are passing legislation protecting workers who do not want to be in unions we are seeing people leave unions in droves. Michigan just passed a right to work law. The union movement, at least in the private sector, is on it's deathbed. We're now seeing public sector unions bankrupting municipalities and states due to ridiculous benefits and pensions.

The teachers in my state have annual 2-3% percent rasies written into there contracts every year yet they still **** and moan about not being paid enough for a job that they only show up for nine months out of the year (you're not doing lesson plans in July and August so save it!) while many in the private sector, who pay for their salaries, benefits and pensions are struggling to get by. I, as a taxpayer am very tired of thier constant complaining. If you don't like it too bad, go do something else. You chose to be a public school teacher, no one made you become one.

So artisan you can take your 6 trillion dollar Obama funded wet dream about the virtues of modern day progressivism and stick it where the sun don't shine! Come November 2014 we're going to see a major correction anyhow and you're not invited to the party.
There are some professions where unions are necessary and they do benefit all. This is, especially, true in non competitive careers like teaching. Unlike industry where companies compete for the best talent, schools do not recruit from other schools. In fact, if you try to apply to a district with an opening, they will reject your application if you are on contract to another district. This limits mobility.

When I was in industry, I could command a higher salary by making myself more valuable to the company. By finding ways to work more efficiently and reduce costs and if they were not willing to pay me, someone else was. In teaching, the only way I could be worth more to the district would be to teach larger and larger classes because the district gets their money per head (Increasing class sizes does not work if you want kids to actually learn). I'm not free to move between districts because districts don't take each other's teachers. Once you're in a district, you're, pretty much in it for life unless you get laid off or quit and take your chances on being unemployed the next year. Since I can't threaten to leave to improve working conditions and pay, I need a union negotiating those things.

People, like you, don't realize that teaching is not a competitive profession like, say, engineering. Schools do not compete for the best teachers and teachers have little chance at moving once they're in a district. Districts have an incentive to hire the cheapest teacher who can get the job done and to get rid of higher paid teachers because the amount of money they get from the state is the same regardless of the teacher's abilty or pay.

I would love to get into my local district BUT they have a habit of posting open positions after they firm up their numbers in September AFTER school has started. Once school starts, they reject my application because I'm already on contract to a district. Also if I do manage to find a district that posts in May or June that I can apply to, I start back at step zero in pay because there is ZERO incentive for a district to pay an experienced teacher more and if the experienced teacher won't start at step zero, they'll hire the new graduate who will. The only way districts have more money is to spend less money. So the incentive is to do things like increase class size, hire inexperienced teachers, get rid of experienced teachers and put off purchasing supplies like books.

If you want to know what unions do for schools all you have to do is compare the quality of education in states with and without teacher unions. Those with unions win hands down.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,469,728 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom1944 View Post
Declan July and August =2 so how do you arrive at 9 months.

In NJ one the highest paid States for teachers the average salary is between $60-65,000 per year. The teachers pay 30% of their health care premiums and over 13% of their salary for social security and their pension. Is that an excessive compensation package?
In Michigan, new hires (not sure what older teachers pay) pay 20% of their medical and 11% into retirement/pension accounts (2% in an IRA (with a 1% match), 2% into an account intended for me to purchase medical when I retire (matched by the state) and 7% into the pension fund) on top of social security. People don't realize that we pay for what we get. My contribution to the pension fund will fully fund my pension for almost 6 years assuming zero return on investments. So I'll be 72 before I cost the state anything over the matching on the two accounts mentioned above, and that's assuming they make nothing on the money they take from me. If they get a reasonable RTI, I'll be more like 74 or 75 before I cost them anything.

And as for the summers off....I work more hours as a teacher than I did as an engineer (for half the pay). I just work the vast majority of them in 10 months. I figured it out once that if you comped me for all my time over 45 hours per week during the school year, you'd still owe me 2-3 weeks vacation at the end of the summer and that is not considering that I now work for half the pay I made as an engineer. Those summers off come at a high price. The price is 60+ hour work weeks for most of the school year. I'd be rolling in money if they had to pay me OT for the hours I work over 45 like they did when I was an engineer.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:08 PM
 
3,281 posts, read 6,262,549 times
Reputation: 2416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Declan's Dad View Post
You're kidding right?

The only things teachers unions care about is collecting dues and maintaining their power. They don't give a damn about the students or the quality of education.
Teachers' working conditions are students' learning conditions. Period.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:23 PM
 
Location: New Hampshire
1,137 posts, read 1,395,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17 View Post
Teachers' working conditions are students' learning conditions. Period.

I live in NH. A few years back there was a professor at UNH that was convicted of exposing himself to a mother and her minor daughter in a supermarket parking lot. When some in the university community and parents of pupils called for him to be fired the professors union went to bat for him. He got to keep his job, benefits, state pension etc

Please explain to me how the union in this case was displaying concern for "students' learning conditions."

Last edited by Declan's Dad; 02-03-2013 at 12:43 PM..
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:25 PM
 
3,281 posts, read 6,262,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Declan's Dad View Post
I live in NH. A few years back there was a professor at UNH that was convicted of exposing himself to a mother and her minor daughter in a supermarket parking lot. When some in the university community and parents of pupils called for him to be fired the professors union went to bat for him. He got to keep his job, benefits, state pension etc

Please explain to me how the union in this case was displaying concern for "students' learning conditions."
And in my state a very good teacher was accused of having a relationship with a student and the story turned out to be an elaborate hoax based on a grudge held by that student. The teacher ended up keeping his job because he had the protection that the union afforded. Did he not deserve that protection? Do teachers not have the right to due process in an often antagonistic environment?

Luckily both of our examples are rare. However it does bear the question, why would any smart or hard-working person enter a profession where they'll liable at any moment to lose their job for no reason? In this case the union's interest in maintaining due process aligns very closely with the best interest of the student, i.e. ensuring that highly-qualified people find the teaching profession attractive.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:35 PM
 
3,281 posts, read 6,262,549 times
Reputation: 2416
By the way, DD, on another thread you said something to the effect of "globalist elites" holding down the "middle class Average Joes." Hopefully you realize that destroying the power of unions is part of that plan. As I said in the post that started this whole debate, teacher's unions are not perfect, but they are a necessity in the world of modern K-12 education where everyone has their own interests and so few have to do with actually improving educational outcomes.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,469,728 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Declan's Dad View Post
I live in NH. A few years back there was a professor at UNH that was convicted of exposing himself to a mother and her minor daughter in a supermarket parking lot. When some in the university community and parents of pupils called for him to be fired the professors union went to bat for him. He got to keep his job, benefits, state pension etc

Please explain to me how the union in this case was displaying concern for "students' learning conditions."
Link please. It helps to have all the details not just the ones you remember. One thing I learned,the first time I sat on a jury, is that the public doesn't hear everything the jury does. They often scratch their heads at verdicts because they don't have all the information. Perhaps this professor, for example, had some kind of break down he recovered from. I don't know. I'll know more when you provide links.

I know a teacher who lost his job beause a student said he touched her. She recanted but he still can't find work as a teacher. He had the misfortune of being in a non union school where it was fire first and ask questions later.
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Old 02-03-2013, 07:31 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
571 posts, read 1,301,213 times
Reputation: 651
Quote:
Originally Posted by marie5v View Post
Unfortunately, there is so much negative propaganda that has been put out there about teacher unions, that anyone who hasn't actually worked in a school will never believe the truth.
The same is true for charter schools. "The truth" being that anything good could ever be associated with charter schools.

I don't even try to have this conversation anymore. People are so sure they are right. Everyone is an expert. Like so many things, I suppose.
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