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Old 10-11-2009, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
In which case, why teach about Columbus at all?
Elementary school children are taught George Washington was the father of our country and the first American president. They're also taught that Lincoln freed the slaves. They don't teach all the gory details of the history behind these two American Presidents until Middle or High School. Why not do the same with Columbus?
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:16 PM
 
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Kids need to learn history in schools. Learning the "basics" like writing leaves out a lot if one doesn't have anything to read or write about. Studying history isn't just about the history itself; it's about learning how to think and to evaluate things. Some of the examples in the article seemed a little over-zealous (putting Columbus on trial), but overall it's perfectly reasonable to get elementary students to think about the good and the bad of situations such as Columbus and his voyages to America. I think it's just as wrong to celebrate him as the "discoverer" of America and to study him only in terms of someone who was brave. That's pretty one-dimensional and pointless, too. In fact, I think the problem with Columbus in particular is the focusing specifically on him and his ships rather than the larger issues of the time, or what his voyages meant for the big picture.

In general, though, I think we're vastly underestimating kids if we think they're not capable of studying history. They need to develop the skills to look at the past and to identify what are the facts and what is interpretation. Kids can learn how to do this sort of thing and can see the nuances of the good and the bad.
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Columbia, California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
,, Why not do the same with Columbus?
What did Columbus do??
He is credited with "finding America", it was never lost. The Vikings had been here 1000 years before. The Asians had crossed the landbridge 18,000 years before.
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
Elementary school children are taught George Washington was the father of our country and the first American president. They're also taught that Lincoln freed the slaves. They don't teach all the gory details of the history behind these two American Presidents until Middle or High School. Why not do the same with Columbus?
Have you spent much time in elementary school classrooms lately? Or visited student outreach programs put on by historic sites or museums? It's not just about George Washington chopping down the cherry tree anymore.
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
Elementary school children are taught George Washington was the father of our country and the first American president. They're also taught that Lincoln freed the slaves. They don't teach all the gory details of the history behind these two American Presidents until Middle or High School. Why not do the same with Columbus?
1) Those two are part of American history, whereas Columbus is a lot less so.

2) Columbus's "gory details" are a lot gorier than either Lincoln's or Washington's.

Washington was the first president under the constitution.

Lincoln did free the slaves.

Columbus did not discover North America, did not prove the world was round, and did intentionally, consciously enslave the natives.

Out of curiosity, which of Washington's and Lincoln's blemishes did you think were being excluded?

That Washington almost got the Revolution crushed in August of 1776, in Brooklyn? That Lincoln may not, initially, have been ardently invested in freeing the slaves; or that he was depressed?
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
A darker side of Columbus emerges in US classrooms - Boston.com (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2009/10/11/a_darker_side_of_columbus_emerges_in_us_classrooms/?page=1 - broken link)
So, how many elementary school teachers teach such lessons about Columbus to elementary school children? Teaching young children he brought small pox and killed the natives and only teaching the horror stories to such children to me is very wrong and smacks of teaching personal idology to an impressionable youth. At such young ages about the most that should be taught is the date and the bravery of making such a trip at all. At that time period such a trip was like sending a man to the moon. Sure he was a flawed man, no person is flawless. But he didn't intentionally bring small pox with him to kill the native population. In high school we learned about the small pox and how the natives died but by that age we understood that this was not an intentional act of violence and did not make him an evil man the way these teachers are making him out to be.
With all due respect, I must disagree. Why not teach the truth about columbus who, while in the process of discovering the new world, enslaved natives in their own lands during his quest for gold? These natives unfairly died from exhaustion, small pox, or suicide.

I discussed this part of columbus' history with my children when it was brought up in their schools. As a responsible parent, it was my duty to ensure that my children understood the entire history, and not just the "sugar coated" version.

You'd probably do the same if your ancestors (i.e., the Caribbean Taino Indians) had been erased from the face of the earth a mere 50 years after columbus set foot on the shores of their pristine islands.

Let truth be always told.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
1) Those two are part of American history, whereas Columbus is a lot less so.

2) Columbus's "gory details" are a lot gorier than either Lincoln's or Washington's.

Washington was the first president under the constitution.

Lincoln did free the slaves.

Columbus did not discover North America, did not prove the world was round, and did intentionally, consciously enslave the natives.

Out of curiosity, which of Washington's and Lincoln's blemishes did you think were being excluded?

That Washington almost got the Revolution crushed in August of 1776, in Brooklyn? That Lincoln may not, initially, have been ardently invested in freeing the slaves; or that he was depressed?
No, I was thinking along the lines of the brutality that was used in the Revolutionary war and in the Civil War. With Lincoln, you could also tell them how he had his critics arrested. There are a lot of other bad things but none of them reduce my respect for them and what they did in troubled times.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
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My ancestors had their own suffering and very few have ever heard their story. I don't hold grudges towards the British nor the French Aristocrats of New Orleans for what happened to my ancestors. I do hold some grudge to what Union soldiers and the American teachers from up north did to my most recent ancestors and my grandparents after the civil war. Don't think school children should be beaten or be bullwhipped for speaking French, the only language they knew, in school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chacho_keva View Post
With all due respect, I must disagree. Why not teach the truth about columbus who, while in the process of discovering the new world, enslaved natives in their own lands during his quest for gold? These natives unfairly died from exhaustion, small pox, or suicide.

I discussed this part of columbus' history with my children when it was brought up in their schools. As a responsible parent, it was my duty to ensure that my children understood the entire history, and not just the "sugar coated" version.

You'd probably do the same if your ancestors (i.e., the Caribbean Taino Indians) had been erased from the face of the earth a mere 50 years after columbus set foot on the shores of their pristine islands.

Let truth be always told.
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Old 10-11-2009, 08:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
No, I was thinking along the lines of the brutality that was used in the Revolutionary war and in the Civil War. With Lincoln, you could also tell them how he had his critics arrested. There are a lot of other bad things but none of them reduce my respect for them and what they did in troubled times.
The brutality of war is taught in elementary school - not with "all the gore" but with reference. However, in neither case is the individual personally responsible for ordering the brutality and in neither case was the brutality one-sidedagainst those who were not threatening the lives of the other party.

Personally enslaving thousands of natives is NOT the equivalent of being C-i-C of forces engaged in a two-sided conflict.

As for Fort Lafayette, I think it ought to be discussed in late elementary school, at the latest. At a minimum, I think teaching to 1st and 2nd graders that these men were unblemished heroes probably sets us up for problems later. It is possible to teach that they did great things, but were flawed.

Still and again, the gap between actions and intentions of Columbus vs. Lincoln or Washington is huge.
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Old 10-11-2009, 09:01 PM
 
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This is one thing that bugs the heck out of me. We give one jaded view of Columbus in negative light YET go on and on about how a "certain" group (christains) came into Europe and "taught" people who to farm (but not that we told them that it was uncivalized to know wild plants and eat from the land) and later when to Africa to teach those "idoits" the same skills....which would eventually be their demise to the point where today mothers are forced to choose which of her children to slaughter to feed all the rest.

I homeschool and I feel it very important to teach all the views and go very indepth with history. Columbus was not the first here, his intentions were to please a king and queen in any way they asked because they were sponsoring his trip, and there is even speculation if Columbus was his real name, if he stole someone's identity and what country he really came from. I don't teach any history as fact. I teach that all history is a story being told from the past from one person's point of view and I do my best to give them as many point of views as possible so they can make their own conclusions.

The only part of the history I make sure they can test to are time frames and results of such adventures and conquests. The fluff in the middle is always debatable and that I engage my children to go on and speculate what they think might have happened and why. Putting some historical figure on trial for something that was not against the law then is plain stupid. There are better ways to teach children that these actions are unacceptable...simply by teaching that route of history. I think it confuses that bit of history with modern ideologies. We need to stick to the who, what, when, and why of that bit of history at that moment.

For me, just to talk about the slavery, I would engage my children in conversation as to why they might want slaves brought from another country (such as getting rid of the very poorly paid servants of the manors among others who were fighting for their rights with ever growing fevor, who eventually found their way to the new world to escape the bondage of generational inheritance to such lifestyles).

What else was going on aroung the world at the same time during Columbus's life and how did all these impact each other? IE: t
  • he peasant revolts in German that dated back to the 15th century all the way through Columbus' time and leading up to the peasant war in 1526,
  • Constantinople falls to Muhammad II and the later treaty of Constantinople,
  • Louis II conquers Northern Italy,
  • Cape Verde Islands are discovered,
  • Dias circles South Africa,
  • Angor captured by the Thais,
  • the Portuguese conqures Muscat,
  • Inca dyansty founded,
  • Fist American slaves brought to Cuba, t
  • he presence of Da Vinci's art, the printing press was invented,
  • the Ming Dynasty rules China,
  • clans fighting each other in Japan,
  • the dress and culture of the renaissance period,
  • pirates harrassing shipping,
  • Canary Island 98% extinction through small pox genocide
Being able to bring it all together like this really paints a picture and instead of learning year by year facts of one man, we are learning how the world evolved together by going from the elegance and/or humorous dress of the time period to the blood and gore of violent clans fighting each other to the interesting inventions of the time period to horrendous acts against humanity to pirates ruling parts of the sea preventing sea voyages to certain parts of the world to the horrors of new diseases being used to wipe out areas of the world to be taken by Europeans. Sure it was accidental the first time or two but after that it was used as a tool, eventually being put into blankets and sent up rivers to Native Americans after Columbus' time.

I disagree with the way history is taught in school. There really isn't much to start with. One thing that gets to me is cultural seperation of historical and current events, seperating what happens in various countries from our own culture, making it seem to kids that our culture is and history somehow better than other cultures rather than teaching the impact that all these events have on each other, which teachs cultural tolerance and deeper understanding.
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