Regular ed and gifted kids (complain, curriculum, assignments, county)

[Ivorytickler]

This is to the regular ed teachers out there. How do you accomodate gifted children in your classes?

I find that, as a general rule (there are exceptions but they are rare), they do not want more work and they do not want to go deeper into the material. They consider either to be unfair to them. As if they are being puished for being gifted. They don't think their giftedness should result in them having to do more. So, I do little to accomodate the gifted kids in my classes. They do whine about being bored but since they don't want more assignments or harder assignments it's their choice to stay that way.

Now, I have had two who go deeper on their own and I let them go. I won't stop a student who wants to do more but I don't require more of my "gifted" kids (quotes because I'm pretty sure two of my "gifted" kids are anything but because of the low level of understanding and questioning (one keeps telling me I need to go slower when 80% of the class already has the material down).

The two kids I have who I'm sure are gifted handle it differently. One does the work for my class and then works, quietly, on his calculus. The other disects everything in my class. I don't know if it's coincidence or not but his class has a much higher average than the other class. I don't know if that's just the way it fell out or if it's because of the types of questions he asks.

I am very curious as to what accomodations you make in the regular classroom for gifted kids. I've tried extra assignments, which was a flop. I've tried going deeper into the material and they ask "Will this be on the test?" and when I say no, they dismiss the material (speaking about most not the two who I mentioned above. I have several kids in my classes who are labeled as gifted since I'm the only chemistry teacher in the school and chemistry is required for graduation.)

What I really find interesting is that, with the exception of the two, all of my "gifted" kids have trouble following instructions in labs. It's like they want their hand held. As if they need to be told what they are doing is right before they'll make a move. Now, the two, I have to watch them because they plow right forward. I let the one in physics just go. He can't do much damage (well he did manage to break a catapult but that can be fixed). The one in my chemistry class has the sense to ask "What will happen if I mix A and C instead of A and B and B and C?

So, I don't make accomodations for most of my "gifted" kids. The two who get accomodations are really self accomodating. They are both welcome to come in after school and run whatever experiments they want (pre approved of course). I have several who claim the gifted label but don't seem to be able to grasp the material or follow instructions. I have one who likes to ask questions just to see if she can get me to say "I don't know" but she's not really interested in what she asks. She'll actually cut me off mid explanation and say "That's ALL I wanted to know". Her intent is to try and embarass me. As the year goes on, she does this less and less because she hasn't succeeded yet. (She does this to other teachers too. She likes to prove her superiority by finding something a teacher can't answer. I'm not really sure how she thinks this makes her superior but she, definitely, thinks it does.)

So, let's discuss accomodations. What works, what doesn't? And, more importantly, what do you do with kids who are "gifted" but don't seem to be interested in going deeper or learning more? I'm most interested in what high school teachers do but everyone should feel free to chime in here. You never know when something might have application somewhere else.

[jps-teacher]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I'm pretty sure two of my "gifted" kids are anything but because of the low level of understanding and questioning (one keeps telling me I need to go slower when 80% of the class already has the material down).

Gifted does not equal gifted in every subject or even every course in a single subject.

Some math gifted kids excel far more in geometry than in algebra, some tother way around.

This maps almost directly to physics vs. chemistry.

And this doesn't even touch the kids whose skills are verbal, not mathematical or scientific. They can be brilliant, but not adept at science.

[Momma_bear]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

This is to the regular ed teachers out there. How do you accomodate gifted children in your classes?

I find that, as a general rule (there are exceptions but they are rare), they do not want more work and they do not want to go deeper into the material. They consider either to be unfair to them. As if they are being puished for being gifted. They don't think their giftedness should result in them having to do more. So, I do little to accomodate the gifted kids in my classes. They do whine about being bored but since they don't want more assignments or harder assignments it's their choice to stay that way.

Now, I have had two who go deeper on their own and I let them go. I won't stop a student who wants to do more but I don't require more of my "gifted" kids (quotes because I'm pretty sure two of my "gifted" kids are anything but because of the low level of understanding and questioning (one keeps telling me I need to go slower when 80% of the class already has the material down).

The two kids I have who I'm sure are gifted handle it differently. One does the work for my class and then works, quietly, on his calculus. The other disects everything in my class. I don't know if it's coincidence or not but his class has a much higher average than the other class. I don't know if that's just the way it fell out or if it's because of the types of questions he asks.

I am very curious as to what accomodations you make in the regular classroom for gifted kids. I've tried extra assignments, which was a flop. I've tried going deeper into the material and they ask "Will this be on the test?" and when I say no, they dismiss the material (speaking about most not the two who I mentioned above. I have several kids in my classes who are labeled as gifted since I'm the only chemistry teacher in the school and chemistry is required for graduation.)

What I really find interesting is that, with the exception of the two, all of my "gifted" kids have trouble following instructions in labs. It's like they want their hand held. As if they need to be told what they are doing is right before they'll make a move. Now, the two, I have to watch them because they plow right forward. I let the one in physics just go. He can't do much damage (well he did manage to break a catapult but that can be fixed). The one in my chemistry class has the sense to ask "What will happen if I mix A and C instead of A and B and B and C?

So, I don't make accomodations for most of my "gifted" kids. The two who get accomodations are really self accomodating. They are both welcome to come in after school and run whatever experiments they want (pre approved of course). I have several who claim the gifted label but don't seem to be able to grasp the material or follow instructions. I have one who likes to ask questions just to see if she can get me to say "I don't know" but she's not really interested in what she asks. She'll actually cut me off mid explanation and say "That's ALL I wanted to know". Her intent is to try and embarass me. As the year goes on, she does this less and less because she hasn't succeeded yet. (She does this to other teachers too. She likes to prove her superiority by finding something a teacher can't answer. I'm not really sure how she thinks this makes her superior but she, definitely, thinks it does.)

So, let's discuss accomodations. What works, what doesn't? And, more importantly, what do you do with kids who are "gifted" but don't seem to be interested in going deeper or learning more? I'm most interested in what high school teachers do but everyone should feel free to chime in here. You never know when something might have application somewhere else.

Your experience is exactly why I prefer honors or gifted classes. Once kids get to be teens they do not want to do more than the others. They want to do exactly the same as everyone else. They think it is unfair for them to be required to do more work than everyone else in the class without any extra credit being given. In a way I can see their point.

I have honors and regular kids in the same classroom (yes-in addition to Chorus I-IV there are honors sections also). At my school honors classes are weighted more heavily than regular classes. They are REQUIRED to do more work to get honors credit. We have to support the honors credit.

In chorus my honors students are required to audition for the select ensembles, they are required to audition for All State and All County, they are required to participate, if they make it. Their efforts are graded by me. If they do not put enough effort into preparation for the auditions it will affect their grade. They are also required to be officers of the ensembles, which entails extra work (a lot of it).

I do not have honors classses in my piano, guitar, and electronic music sections. However, in those classes it is easy to accomodate advanced students. All students take playing tests on specific days. If a student is advanced I can move them ahead in the book and have them test page 31 while the rest of the class tests page 20.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

Your experience is exactly why I prefer honors or gifted classes. Once kids get to be teens they do not want to do more than the others. They want to do exactly the same as everyone else. They think it is unfair for them to be required to do more work than everyone else in the class without any extra credit being given. In a way I can see their point.

I have honors and regular kids in the same classroom (yes-in addition to Chorus I-IV there are honors sections also). At my school honors classes are weighted more heavily than regular classes. They are REQUIRED to do more work to get honors credit. We have to support the honors credit.

In chorus my honors students are required to audition for the select ensembles, they are required to audition for All State and All County, they are required to participate, if they make it. Their efforts are graded by me. If they do not put enough effort into preparation for the auditions it will affect their grade. They are also required to be officers of the ensembles, which entails extra work (a lot of it).

I do not have honors classses in my piano, guitar, and electronic music sections. However, in those classes it is easy to accomodate advanced students. All students take playing tests on specific days. If a student is advanced I can move them ahead in the book and have them test page 31 while the rest of the class tests page 20.

I can't imagine teaching chemistry or physics on two different levels in the same class. Labs would be a nightmare.

I did have one "directed study" student last year but if I didn't keep on her, she did nothing. I, finally, let her do nothing and just graded her on what she did in the class (she was required to take all the tests). She was not happy with her final grade. Her final "directed study" project was full of errors and looked like something she threw together in an afternoon. She, honestly, thought she deserved an A in the class because she did a directed study project and other students didn't. Problem is, it wasn't an A project.

[StarlaJane]

Agreed. The approach differs according to the subject that you are teaching.
For my gifted students, I started by giving them an extra work, which didn't work out. I found that allowing them to work on whatever they wished to when they finished early was very effective. Otherwise, I had to deal with major behavioral issues.
I also vary the lessons. Some parts are very rudimentary: multiple choice, fill-in-the blank exercises. But then I pose more difficult questions that might involve oral short answer, higher reasoning or simply a different approach to the problem.
But as I said, it depends on what you are teaching, and I don't teach science.

[Momma_bear]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I can't imagine teaching chemistry or physics on two different levels in the same class. Labs would be a nightmare.

I did have one "directed study" student last year but if I didn't keep on her, she did nothing. I, finally, let her do nothing and just graded her on what she did in the class (she was required to take all the tests). She was not happy with her final grade. Her final "directed study" project was full of errors and looked like something she threw together in an afternoon. She, honestly, thought she deserved an A in the class because she did a directed study project and other students didn't. Problem is, it wasn't an A project.

I would agree that the content you are teaching determines how you handle it.

You were talking about extra assignments and harder assignments and saying that the gifted kids didn't want to do them. Honors credit for a higher weighting might be all you need to provide an incentive for them to actually do the harder and extra assignments. I wouldn't do them if I wasn't getting anything for them either.

The additional/more difficult assignments should be based on the SAME CURRICULUM as the others are studying so you don't have to teach a separate curriculum.

Honors means doing some independent work. My chorus students have to prepare for their All State and All County auditions on their own time. I make myself available after school to help them but the bulk of the honors work is done by them on thier own time. I just listen and give pointers.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

I would agree that the content you are teaching determines how you handle it.

You were talking about extra assignments and harder assignments and saying that the gifted kids didn't want to do them. Honors credit for a higher weighting might be all you need to provide an incentive for them to actually do the harder and extra assignments. I wouldn't do them if I wasn't getting anything for them either.

The additional/more difficult assignments should be based on the SAME CURRICULUM as the others are studying so you don't have to teach a separate curriculum.

Honors means doing some independent work. My chorus students have to prepare for their All State and All County auditions on their own time. I make myself available after school to help them but the bulk of the honors work is done by them on thier own time. I just listen and give pointers.

This is what I don't get (in bold). They complain they're bored but won't do anything about it when it's offered. The something else they get is more knowledge and they're not bored. Yet they see it as them doing something for nothing. Why would learning more be nothing to a gifted child?

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by StarlaJane

Agreed. The approach differs according to the subject that you are teaching.
For my gifted students, I started by giving them an extra work, which didn't work out. I found that allowing them to work on whatever they wished to when they finished early was very effective. Otherwise, I had to deal with major behavioral issues.
I also vary the lessons. Some parts are very rudimentary: multiple choice, fill-in-the blank exercises. But then I pose more difficult questions that might involve oral short answer, higher reasoning or simply a different approach to the problem.
But as I said, it depends on what you are teaching, and I don't teach science.

I do allow working on whatever they want after their work is done but I have a problem with them wanting to just do the other work. Their logic is they can do it later, which they can but if I don't set a rule that says you have to be done with your work in my class to work on other work, I have a dozen kids doing work for other classes INSTEAD of work for mine. They get irritated with that. Most of my upper end kids will do the work later but most of the rest of my class won't so it's you must be done to work on something else.

Surprisingly, my "gifted" kids seem to like the hands on rudimentary exercises the most. Anything that involves scissors, glue and crayons is a hit with them One girl (who I don't think is gifted at all) said it's because they don't have to think when they do those exercises so they're relaxing.

[Momma_bear]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

This is what I don't get (in bold). They complain they're bored but won't do anything about it when it's offered. The something else they get is more knowledge and they're not bored. Yet they see it as them doing something for nothing. Why would learning more be nothing to a gifted child?

No matter how smart they are they are still kids and they don't want to have to do more work than other kids and get the same grade. They see it as being punished for being smart.

My son is in a similar situation in his Spanish class. Spanish I/II are not offered as honors classes at his school and he has nearly 100 average in Spanish II. His teacher offers extra assignments but he says "Why should I do them? I already have an A+ in the class and I can't get any higher that that." He wants to learn, but he is a kid and they are all basically lazy at his age (he'll be 16 in Feb). He does say Spanish is easy and that he is bored in the class but he can't see taking the time to do extra assignments that won't get him anything extra. He has other classes that are more challenging (AP World, Honors English) and he can't see wasting his time doing Spanish assignments that don't really help his grades when he has plenty of work to do in History and English.

Attitudes like his are exactly why smart kids need honors classes. In his honors/AP classes he is REQUIRED to do work at a higher level. In his regular Spanish class he can do practically nothing and still get an A+. Why do more work if you can't get any credit for it? Especially if you have other classes that do challenge you.

[StarlaJane]

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

No matter how smart they are they are still kids and they don't want to have to do more work than other kids and get the same grade. They see it as being punished for being smart.

My son is in a similar situation in his Spanish class. Spanish I/II are not offered as honors classes at his school and he has nearly 100 average in Spanish II. His teacher offers extra assignments but he says "Why should I do them? I already have an A+ in the class and I can't get any higher that that." He wants to learn, but he is a kid and they are all basically lazy at his age (he'll be 16 in Feb). He does say Spanish is easy and that he is bored in the class but he can't see taking the time to do extra assignments that won't get him anything extra. He has other classes that are more challenging (AP World, Honors English) and he can't see wasting his time doing Spanish assignments that don't really help his grades when he has plenty of work to do in History and English.

Attitudes like his are exactly why smart kids need honors classes. In his honors/AP classes he is REQUIRED to do work at a higher level. In his regular Spanish class he can do practically nothing and still get an A+. Why do more work if you can't get any credit for it? Especially if you have other classes that do challenge you.

Oh, goody, you brought up my subject area!

I could not agree more. I initially did this with my higher achieving students (in Spanish classes), and it didn't work. So many decided that they would work on something else (of their own choosing) while others finished the assignment. This usually solved the problem; most chose to read a book or catch up on other homework. However, this usually didn't occur very often (in class) b/c I presented the material at varying levels. I also gave the same amount of homework to every student.

I remember that some teachers also suggested that the higher achieving kids work with/help students that are having difficulty. While I think that this is a good idea, I don't think that it should be required of gifted or high-achieveing students during classwork but should remain an option (i.e. voluntary after-school tutoring).

And when I did recognize students who excelled, I usually recommended them for higher level classes. Of course, if that isn't an option, the situation is really frustrating. That really is too bad, your son sounds very talented and it seems as if his foreign language skills aren't being challenged or expanded. As a foreign language teacher, that really irks me