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I am not a teacher so I probably have no business answering this question. However, I am a manager and much of what I have to do includes motivating people to do things they do not want to do.
It has been my experience that people, generally do not get a lot of love these days. It's a pretty cold, brutal existence for many.
Strange as it may sound, I find that when you really appreciate people, acknowledge them, praise them, applaud their efforts and love them that, in time, they will move mountains for you. True, sincere acknowledgement and appreciation seems to be so rare these days - and love? love? it's non-existent. Some of these kids may not have ANYONE EVER say anything nice to them. They will do what they are supposed to do just to get that recognition.
They are proud of the fact they are smart. The problem is their egos are fragile. They see themselves as only as good as their last grade. They see every new thing that doesn't come easily as a challenge to their title of "smart". They expect things to come easily. That's what "smart" means to them. It means getting an A on every test. A B is a failure yet it's the things we struggle with that teach us the most. When things come easily, it usually means we're not learning and we're, definitely, not being challenged.
I have a theory here.
No you have a personal opinion and as a science teacher and research scientist I am alarmed that you do not know the difference.
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For close to 20 years now we've been raising our children on praise and giving trophies just for showing up. We've patted them on the back for every effort and told them how great they are. I think they now live in fear they won't live up to the hype. New material isn't a new chance to learn something. It's a new possibility they may prove they're not as smart as everyone thinks they are. They WANT to be seen as smart and think they're not if things don't come easily.
Your lack of understanding of humans work is astounding. People work for one reason only, positive reinforcement. For children, that lack the ability to understand abstract concepts (and how could you have no idea about Piaget and be a teacher is beyond me) they need more immediate positive reinforcement. Obviously, that reinforcement needs to be for actually accomplishing a task but you have success so tied up with grades its no wonder at all that they are disheartened and unmotivated. I would not want you as a teacher for my child either.
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I have never been a fan of praising children. I don't praise my own. My kids are being raised on a healthy dose of constructive criticism.
And yet you couldn't take any criticism. I think the irony is palpable. The irony is YOU are not succeeding as a teacher and instead of realizing that its up to you, you have instead chosen to pass the blame.
Second, as a parent, I truly feel badly for your children. Linking praise to actual accomplishment is a true parentlng skill but constructive criticism from parents (the one source of unconditional love for a child) is cruel.
I am not a teacher so I probably have no business answering this question. However, I am a manager and much of what I have to do includes motivating people to do things they do not want to do.
It has been my experience that people, generally do not get a lot of love these days. It's a pretty cold, brutal existence for many.
Strange as it may sound, I find that when you really appreciate people, acknowledge them, praise them, applaud their efforts and love them that, in time, they will move mountains for you. True, sincere acknowledgement and appreciation seems to be so rare these days - and love? love? it's non-existent. Some of these kids may not have ANYONE EVER say anything nice to them. They will do what they are supposed to do just to get that recognition.
It works, I know it does.
20yrsinBranson
Thanks for the input. I have to agree. We are dealing with a generation raised on praise when they were small. I'm sure the praise has gotten less and less over the years. I do see acknowledgement as motiavint students. The lab before last, was one I couldn't quite get the results I wanted for but two lab groups (one in each class) did. The lab involved plating and then firing metals to make alloys. Turned out you needed a polishing step between plating and firing and those two groups figured that out. They were very happy with the fact they had the best results.
My students, definitely, lack an internal barometer to tell them when they're doing well. Often they can't assess their ability at all. They'll tell me a test was really easy and they failed it.
The issue here is how to acknowledge on a group basis and not make it look like I'm just looking for anything to compliment them on. I can see this working one on one. There's always something a student recently learned that they'd struggled with.
Ok, let's tackle one thing. Just getting homework in on time. I swear I shoot myself in the foot by taking it late but if I didn't, half of my gradebook would be zeros. (Though I am finding that most seasoned teachers simply don't take late work. Maybe I'd have more students doing the work on time if I refused to take it late. I know I'd save me a headache just sorting through three weeks of assignments a once ).
How could this be applied, in a class of 30 students, to just getting homework in on time? Would I just compliment all the kids who did? So far, I've tried having them turn in the homework which results in a low rate of return. I took the advice a teacher gave here and started just checking off the assignments that I wasn't going to give a letter grade to anyway and that has helped because they know I'm going to walk around the room, ask to see it, and stamp it off (I bought a seasonal stamp kit so they get the stamp of the day). That helped. I do see more reading notes and in class exercises done when I do this. Homework, which is graded is still an issue. How do you apply acknowledgement to a whole class? I can see where it can work. I just don't know how to do it with 30 kids at a time without it looking contrived.
Side question to teachers who have done this. How do you have your classes grade homework without them cheating? If just me coming around checking work, publically, helped, maybe having to grade it in class would help (we're not allowed to have them switch papers because the school considers that embarassing to the students who don't do well so they have to grade their own). There are two reasons I ask on this. First, I want to create a better line of learning. I want faster feedback when they've done something wrong. I feel it's too slow for me to collect the work, grade the work and pass it back 2 days later. Second, I'm tired of grading homework assignments. I need to grade the big stuff but I'd love to push the little stuff off of my desk.
No you have a personal opinion and as a science teacher and research scientist I am alarmed that you do not know the difference.
Your lack of understanding of humans work is astounding. People work for one reason only, positive reinforcement. For children, that lack the ability to understand abstract concepts (and how could you have no idea about Piaget and be a teacher is beyond me) they need more immediate positive reinforcement. Obviously, that reinforcement needs to be for actually accomplishing a task but you have success so tied up with grades its no wonder at all that they are disheartened and unmotivated. I would not want you as a teacher for my child either.
And yet you couldn't take any criticism. I think the irony is palpable. The irony is YOU are not succeeding as a teacher and instead of realizing that its up to you, you have instead chosen to pass the blame.
Second, as a parent, I truly feel badly for your children. Linking praise to actual accomplishment is a true parentlng skill but constructive criticism from parents (the one source of unconditional love for a child) is cruel.
No, I don't lack understanding of how humans work. Humans who are raised on praise will crave praise. Humans who are raised to accomplish something will crave accomplishing something. Our children have been raised on praise. I have one who was raised on accomplishment. No one has to praise her for her to know she's done well. No one has to tell her when she's fallen short of the mark. She knows, intrinsically.
Praising children for every effort and giving trophies for just showing up just makes kids expect a prize and feel cheated when they don't get one. Life is not this way. No one gives you a trophy for just showing up. You have to EARN them.
Oh, you need to meet my kids. My daugher has more self esteem than the next six kids over because hers is built on ability NOT praise. There is nothing like accomplishing something difficult to build a child's self esteem.
We've found praise to be a very negative thing. The first time dd heard overt praise, she was six. She volunteered to play the piano for the church and was in 7th heaven when they said yes. She couldn't believe they were letting her play the big piano for the church. She played for two performances. In the first, her sheer joy at being allowed to play on stage showed loud and clear. It was beautiful. In between services though, person after person came up to her and gushed "YOU are SO talented", "YOU have a real gift", "YOU ARE so lucky" "YOU ARE, YOU ARE, YOU ARE...." etc, etc, etc... Her second peformance lacked that joy. It was work. It was flat. Without anyone saying a word to her, she ran out of the building. All of those well meaning people had labeled her. They meant well, but she heard "We EXPECT you to be talented", "We EXPECT you to play great". She has no control over her talent or being great. She also never knows when she's met your definition of those things. You see her definition of great is different than theirs. Great to her is her piano teacher or any number of concert pianists.
She still plays for the church but she's learned to disappear between services so people can't do that to her. I keep asking them to just say "Thank you for playing for us" but they still want to gush about how "talented" and "Gifted" she is, what a "GEM" and how LUCKY we are to have her in the congregation. She has no control over talent and giftedness. People don't realize that to declare her those things is to label her and pin an expectation on her and she has no internal barometer to know when she has or has not lived up to their expectations. She only knows when she has lived up to her own. She doesn't like to talk to people after she plays now becuase she neve knows if she's lived up to their expectations. She doesn't like having them pin expectations on her. With her teacher, it's clear what she needs to imrove. She's given control over what needs to be improved so she's fine with constructive criticism. In fact, she thrives on it.
I am a firm believer that true self esteem is rooted in ability. I would love to bolster my student's self esteem by giving them ability.
Only once a year will you hear her piano teacher tell a student "well done" and that is after the final recital. Up until that point, they get constructive criticism and it works BEAUTIFULLY. The kids in dd's piano class are happy, confident, outgoing, willing to try anything and open to improving everything they do. These kids are primed for success in life. You don't get that by praising kids. You get that by empowering them to succeed. That's what you get with constructive criticism. You teach a child to control what they can control to make the final product better.
This irks many parents like you because nothing is ever done and it isn't. It can always be improved upon. However, there is continuous improvements and victories all along the way. Making it to the next level, even though there is now something else to master is a good thing.
Dd knows that if Miss C doesn't complain about what she complained about last week, she got it right. The important thing about constructive criticism is to make sure you give the power to the child to fix the issue. For example, dd struggled with a very fast scale run in one of the pieces she played in competition this year. Miss C. kept correcting her finger position and showing her that she had to lift out of the keys and strike to make it through that run. After several lessons, she had one where Miss C didn't mention the scale run. Dd left beaming. She knew she'd mastered it. But she also left with a new list of things to work on. Life, like piano, is a work in progress and never finished until we die.
I could go on about my best friend with an IQ of 180 who was crippled by praise to the point she'd rather flip burgers and let the world think she doesn't even have that IQ. Constant recognition only breeds kids who NEED constant recognition. I'm dealing with a generation of them. Or myself who nearly dropped out of college the first time I got a B because I was trying to live up to the expectations of others. I had to learn to tune out the comments about how smart I am and what a brilliant future I had. I have no idea why other people even needed to comment on those things.
I KNOW when I do well and I know when I don't. I don't need you to tell me either. I don't want you to tell me either. I am very uncomfortable when others are praising something I feel is inferior work or the other way around though I take criticism of something I felt was better better than I do praise for something I know doesn't make the grade.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 04-06-2010 at 07:06 AM..
Continuing on another post because I want to drop my own children out of this debate. They are both honor students, accomplished and have loads of self esteem (too much at times, lol).
What does one do with kids who are raised on praise? I see students who lack an internal barometer to know when they've done well. I also see students afraid to try because they never know when they will live up to the expecations of others while being desperate for that next fix of praise. If teaching were like teaching the piano, where each student worked on their level and their issues until they mastered them and moved on, I think I'd know what to do but it's not self pacing.
How do you apply this in the classroom to a whole group? One on one would not be and is not an issue. I have several students who live in my room after school. They get that kind of feedback all the time. I avoid overt priase and I do try to throw in a bit of constructive criticism. I won't say "Well done" but I will say "See what happens when you stick with it!" I will try to tie the success to something the student controlled like, doing the homework, coming in for tutoring or taking the time to really understand the problem.
I do think this could lead to something if I can figure out how to apply it large scale. Maybe class goals???? A reward for say 90% of homework turned in on time? Or am I going off in a different direction here?
Thanks for the input. I have to agree. We are dealing with a generation raised on praise when they were small. I'm sure the praise has gotten less and less over the years. I do see acknowledgement as motiavint students.
**Snip**
My students, definitely, lack an internal barometer to tell them when they're doing well. Often they can't assess their ability at all. They'll tell me a test was really easy and they failed it.
The issue here is how to acknowledge on a group basis and not make it look like I'm just looking for anything to compliment them on. I can see this working one on one. There's always something a student recently learned that they'd struggled with.
I do not believe that acknowledging them as a group will be effective. Speaking personally, I do not wish to be recognized as part of a faceless group. I want to be recognized for what *I* do.
Praising even the most basic and fundamental accomplishment, I believe will lead to them doing more and more to get that kind of recognition. Starting small and building is the key, IMHO. But again, I am no expert with children, I only know this has worked in my work environment with underachieving adults.
I am completing my field experience hours in a middle school right now. My favorite teacher is a quiet, mousy man who I was shocked was teaching the unruly kids I saw in the hallway. Yet, after only a few days in his classroom, it's obvious those kids respect him and look up to him.
Why? Because he uses positive reinforcement. Sometimes it's dumb little things ("Thank you, Susie, for having your desk cleared off" or "I really appreciate how responsible you are by always having your pencil sharpened"), and other times it's big stuff (when a kid gets a tricky grammar problem right, or when they volunteer to help out--which, by the way, he never has a shortage of volunteers). He doesn't bribe, doesn't threaten, and somehow all these kids (who I've seen goof off in other classes over the past few weeks!) pay attention.
He is fair, he is honest, and he treats them kindly. He doesn't restrict bathroom passes or refuse to write late slips like some teachers I've seen. He expects them to be on task, and they are. I have never heard him raise his voice or say anything negative. The kids do well because they really like their teacher as a person, and want to please him.
I'm sure that part of it is he's lucky he doesn't have any ridiculously huge trouble makers to disrupt everyone, but even the kids who whine and complain about assignments have them done by the end of the period.
I am happy for you that your children do well and are well adjusted. Just FYI mine were raised on positive reinforcement and are in national honors society at an even more competitive academy in my district, they also have a good sense of self esteem. The point is that anecdotal evidence is not relevant. Maybe you should read up about the role of specific, infrequently positive reinforcement on children because despite your rant about how you and your children learn that is not remotely the norm.
Finally, I am going to ask again the single most important (IMO) question that you have yet to answer. Don't you think your students realize how negatively you feel about them? Or are they stupid to realize that too?
Your location says it all. State of Denial. You have anecdotal evidence about praise that you gather to support your erroneous belief system that praise is wrong. You list one or two people who had problems with praise. IMHO you didn't get any as a child, so you've built up this belief system to support your lack of feedback or your resultant insecurities. Your children deserve positive reinforcement, and there will come a day when they are on a therapists couch discussing why they never got any.
But to leave your kids out of this: you have gotten the same answer over and over and over. You continue to sit in the prison of your belief about praise and you have decided that praise is bad. It isn't good to praise for nothing. I agree. And praising someone for breathing is just stupid. unless they're asthmatic. However - telling kids: "I'm proud of you all for getting your homework in on time." "Thank you Tommy for helping Mary with that problem." "You figured it out. I'm proud of you for doing that on your own." "That's correct. Good job." WORKS. You keep asking how to do something. We keep telling you. You change the subject and give us more reasons why the collective experience (I've been teaching for 34 years, plus all the other teachers on here...) of successful teachers on here is wrong. This is YOUR issue, darlin'. This is NOT the kids.
You have a huge and wonderful opportunity in front of you. God has placed this class in your care for YOU to learn. For YOU to understand why YOU have a problem when someone praises you. Why YOU have so much trouble with the "constructive criticism" of people on here who cared enough to take a little time out of their day to answer your questions and help you. YOU have a wonderful possibility to get over your old tapes about why someone you cared about in your life didn't praise you. You get to let that go now. You get to stop making up stories about why you didn't get it from your mom or your dad. It ISN"T OK that people didn't praise you. And it ISN"T OK that you aren't praising your class or your kids. Don't overdo it. No one here is saying to fake it. But use it judiciously .... give it a try for a week. And you'll be astounded at the difference in your class. Do it for them. Do it for you. Do it for your kids.
Itʹ's always worthwhile to make others aware of their worth. ~Malcolm Forbes
"I like you to the extent that I'm comfortable with myself in your presence." ~ Olaf Isaachsen
Go read "Please Understand Me" by Kiersey and Bates. There is a huge body of work on personality types, what works, what doesn't work, who needs praise more than others, and why that's acceptable.
Ivory - you are walking in the heads of a lot of malleable little brains. You owe it to them to learn more about human motivation, or not be a teacher.
I do not believe that acknowledging them as a group will be effective. Speaking personally, I do not wish to be recognized as part of a faceless group. I want to be recognized for what *I* do.
Praising even the most basic and fundamental accomplishment, I believe will lead to them doing more and more to get that kind of recognition. Starting small and building is the key, IMHO. But again, I am no expert with children, I only know this has worked in my work environment with underachieving adults.
20yrsinBranson
I agree. I'm just stumped as to how to apply this. It will become obvious what I'm doing if I simply go around the room finding someting to praise. Obviously, this will be easier in labs. I can look for certain things and point them out. It will, probably, be a good way to encourage good lab techniques.
I have done things like given extra credit to students who help clean up when I know the mess isn't theirs but that does nothing to stop the students who left the mess (I have someone (probably more than one) in one class who tries to get away with leaving their dirty glassware anywhere they can to avoid cleaning it. I'm sure they grab clean glassware off of other benches to cover themselves because I've had groups come to me and tell me their stuff was missing only to find someone left dirty glassware in a sink)).
I really wish I had a room where I could have food in the room. The suggestion to toss out candy when someone participates is a really good one. I think that would work with my kids but my room often has chemicals out or hasn't been scrubbed since the last lab and I don't want to encourage eating in the room because it doubles as a lab. I could solve so many of my problems with a separate lab but it's the one thing I am not going to get.
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When things come easily, it usually means we're not learning and we're, definitely, not being challenged.
