The Tennessee Septic Tank / Too Many Bedrooms Gotcha (sales, 2009)

[gemkeeper]

Yarddawg, it is a proven scientific fact that the septic additives are indeed just snake oil. The septic system is a closed biological system that when used properly is a perfect percolating machine.

Just to add a footnote to Grizzly's post. Coffee grounds are not the only thing that can mess up your septic system. You should never, ever put any animal or animal by-products into a septic tank. Animal protein is the one thing that the bacteria in a septic system cannot digest.

This includes that infamous bacon fat, chicken scraped off the plate and run throught the garbage disposal, and do not even think about putting those egg shells down there.

Vegetable matter is digested, but why make your septic system do the work for you. It is so beneficial just to take all of the veggie and fruit scapings and peels and put them in a mulch pile - or if you are not particularly concerned about the landfills - in the trash can.

If you choose to have a mulch bed, just be sure that NONE of those nasty animal products end up in there either. The only protein that should be in your mulch bed are earthworms - alive, please. They have the digestive trait that will rival and beat your septic system and you will have something wonderful to add to your garden in the spring.

Carry on, yarddawg, we're listening.

[TN_Mike]

It has been a few weeks since the septic tank was pumped. I finally had a chance to cut the grass and was expecting to see a lot of surface water down by the diverter valve, as I assumed it would be even more water than before. But this time the ground was bone dry all over the top of the entire drain field. No water at all. I figured maybe the septic tank pump-out gave the field a break and let it dry out, and if so then I am wondering how long it will take before the water comes back. I am willing to get a repair permit and have it looked at but I don't know for sure that something is wrong, and I can't find any signs to show them so I am not sure what they would even look for.

The only other thing that has changed is our water consumption habits. I now flush the main toilet every other time as long as there is just water in the bowl. I also reduced the flow on my shower head and take shorter showers, down to 5-7 minutes now when they used to be 10-25 minutes before. And we quit throwing veggies and small meat scraps down our garbage disposal - everything goes in the trash now. We also spread out our laundry through the week instead of doing it all at once, and we avoid laundry on rainy days. Could it be that our habits alone were enough to make the difference? Or is the septic tank just not filled back up yet? Should I forget about it until (if) the water returns, or do I still get a permit and have someone come out to check it now?

[gemkeeper]

TN_Mike, I would bet that just changing your usage habits will make all of the difference in the world.

Avoiding heavy water usage during rainy spells and keeping the animal scraps out of your septic tank alone should make a big difference in how effective your tank and your drainage field operate.

You have to remember that when animal scraps, including egg shells, bones, leftover meat, etc. go into that tank they take weeks to digest in there. Whereas, going through your digestive system they would be broken down and loaded with digestive enzymes and benficial bacteria in a matter of hours.

A septic tank was never designed to handle undigested food - especially from animals, and that can cause a system failure all by itself.

I'm glad to hear that you have made some positive changes, not just for your septic system, but also for the environment and water conservation. Good to hear.

[Grizzlybear34]

Tn_Mike - good to hear! Hopefully, just changing your habits will make the difference.

You can use your savings to put gas in your tank now!

There is always something to spend it on, is there not?

[barger]

Originally Posted by TN_Mike

It has been a few weeks since the septic tank was pumped. I finally had a chance to cut the grass and was expecting to see a lot of surface water down by the diverter valve, as I assumed it would be even more water than before. But this time the ground was bone dry all over the top of the entire drain field. No water at all. I figured maybe the septic tank pump-out gave the field a break and let it dry out, and if so then I am wondering how long it will take before the water comes back. I am willing to get a repair permit and have it looked at but I don't know for sure that something is wrong, and I can't find any signs to show them so I am not sure what they would even look for.

The only other thing that has changed is our water consumption habits. I now flush the main toilet every other time as long as there is just water in the bowl. I also reduced the flow on my shower head and take shorter showers, down to 5-7 minutes now when they used to be 10-25 minutes before. And we quit throwing veggies and small meat scraps down our garbage disposal - everything goes in the trash now. We also spread out our laundry through the week instead of doing it all at once, and we avoid laundry on rainy days. Could it be that our habits alone were enough to make the difference? Or is the septic tank just not filled back up yet? Should I forget about it until (if) the water returns, or do I still get a permit and have someone come out to check it now?

I didn't read your entire post but I did skim through it. Boy, this thread is a long one. I am located in Roane County, TN and manufacture septic tanks. We deal with several states and almost every county inside Tennessee.

What defines a bedroom is very important to your septic system so Ground Water Protection is very careful to make sure they size your system accordingly. Always design for worse case scenario type deal. I would point out that the difference between a 3 bedroom system and 4 or 5 bedroom system is not that much. In fact, our 1000 gallon tanks cost less than 750 gallon tanks. A five bedroom may incur a %25 percent increase in system price and that would be a high figure.

See sizing criteria in this document starting on page 17. http://www.state.tn.us/sos/rules/120...1200-01-06.pdf

With that said I am in no way saying Ground Water Protection is without fault. If they enforced many of the rules they are supposed too, most people would have little problems with their septic systems and be more informed on long-term maintenance expectations. You can read a report here someone wrote that really points out how little Ground Water Protection field staff have to do during the year so I am confused to why they claim they are under staffed but that is another topic all in itself. Septic System Failures: Forcing the State of Tennessee to fix your failure that they caused

Also read up on Dr. John R. Buchanan, Ph.D., P. E. from the University of Tennessee here -> http://tennessee.gov/environment/gwp...msizingrpt.pdf

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Yes, your habbits alone are enough to change the way your septic tank works. You most likely have a 1000 gallon septic tank. My wife and I use ~2000 gallons per month. It would take us about 15 days to fill the tank back up after it has been pumped if we had a 1,000 gallon tank. Do you use anti-bacterial soap or bleaches? Like most people including myself, the answer is yes. That is enough to keep your septic system from operation properly. This is one reason solids build up faster today when compared to the 1960's.

Is your tank watertight? You would be shocked how much water a tank an let in because it was not manufactured correctly. http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nati...utions_200801/ Starting on page 22. A very good read if I say so myself.

The important thing to have done when getting a septic tank pumped out is to make sure that ALL SOLIDS are removed from both compartments. The rule we use is when the solids are measured vertically in the tank and reach 25% of the liquid depth (vertical liquid height), it is time to have the tank pumped. You would be surprised how many people have tanks that you could walk across the top of it because they are so packed with solids. Larger the tank, the less often you have to have it pumped, but the more expensive it cost to have it pumped.

Have you looked into water efficient washing machine? They using around 16 or so gallons compared to the regular machines of days gone by that use as much as 55 gallons per load.

Just some thought to the discussion. Also, the typical installation cost of a septic system right now is about $10 per foot of field line installed. 330' of field line would mean your entire septic system would cost approximately $3300, minus anything bad terrain or special conditions.

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[jimj]

So Mr. Barger a question. I'm aware that bleach and some soaps can whack at the little critters in your tank so what do YOU suggest to fatten the bugs back up again?
My septic guy suggested a half cup or so (not the whole box like the instructions say) of ridex after we used any bleach or every couple of weeks. Another suggested some bakers yeast.

[barger]

Originally Posted by jimj

So Mr. Barger a question. I'm aware that bleach and some soaps can whack at the little critters in your tank so what do YOU suggest to fatten the bugs back up again?
My septic guy suggested a half cup or so (not the whole box like the instructions say) of ridex after we used any bleach or every couple of weeks. Another suggested some bakers yeast.

I do not recommend any additive/enzyme. You really can't add anything to a tank to get it restarted. The fact is, that most tanks are "dead" today and people must stay on top of them getting them pumped out. The best thing to do is not hydraullically overload your tank and going on vacation more often helps out more than anything. You septic tank needs a break.

I can tell you that several TN GWP field agents have often said a cup full of dog food would work. I don't believe it.

Just watch what you flush and how much water is going down the drain.

[mgabriel]

I live in TN and own a track of land that we are planning on building on. Up until recently it has a mobile home on it. It has a two bedroom septic system on it. I have lived in the area all my life and have never known the system to have any problems. I was planning on using the existing system and build a two bedroom house with a “hobby room”. I wonder about resell value of a house that is listed as a two bedroom home. The alternative is to put a mound system which is going to be very expensive due to the nature of the land. Any suggestions or advice will be helpful.

Thanks....

[subuje]

We bought a 1915 house that previously had a five person family living there. We have redone the house and electric . Last week the TE ground protection came and said the previous owner tried to get a permit for a subsurface septic tank system and it was denied because there was no adequete soil. He said the only alternative was to walk away and cut our losses. Is that true? Can they ask you to do that? We even said we would put up and old fashion outhouse. He said you have to have a permit to do that. He even went on to say you can't take a bath there or even wash your clothes because you can't legally dump that water on the ground surface. There has to be an alternative. The ground is very rocky. I am so sad I don't want to walk away from this home.

[yarddawg]

Originally Posted by subuje

We bought a 1915 house that previously had a five person family living there. We have redone the house and electric . Last week the TE ground protection came and said the previous owner tried to get a permit for a subsurface septic tank system and it was denied because there was no adequete soil. He said the only alternative was to walk away and cut our losses. Is that true? Can they ask you to do that? We even said we would put up and old fashion outhouse. He said you have to have a permit to do that. He even went on to say you can't take a bath there or even wash your clothes because you can't legally dump that water on the ground surface. There has to be an alternative. The ground is very rocky. I am so sad I don't want to walk away from this home.

OK, I'm guessing here but it sounds like this house never had an approved septic system, yes? That makes things a lot tougher, you have to meet the same permit standards as someone applying for new construction. And to get it out of the way, yes, it is possible that you won't be able to get a septic permit. New construction permits are denied every day, there's not usually a house there when they are but that won't get you any special consideration. If the previous owner was officially denied a permit there should at the very least be a high intensity soil map of the entire property on file at the local groundwater office. Getting a copy of that should be one of your first steps, it'll give you a better idea of just how bad off you are. Heck, get a copy of the entire file while you're there. It's all public information and sometimes there's valuable info written up in memos and site reports about things that were considered and discounted without filing all the official paperwork.

Also, Tennessee makes no distinction between graywater and blackwater so if it's coming out of a pipe from your house it's sewage. That's what the laundry and bathwater problem is about. Outhouses do require a permit but they're pretty easy to get.

Once you have the file and know what the previous owner did and didn't do and see just how crappy the soil conditions are you have a decision to make. If all he did was get to the first permit denial there are still avenues for variances, all the way up to quasi-experimental stuff that requires restrictive covenants on the deed that say (translated from legalese) "The State of Tennessee makes no guarantees that this will ever work and you may be pissing away thousands or tens of thousands of dollars on property you will still have to abandon". BUT - if the soil conditions really are awful it's debatable whether or not it would be worth the money, time and effort to chase loopholes through the system for the privilege of spending five figures for a septic system that will work part of the time.