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Old 07-17-2009, 07:31 PM
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Thanks for responding. I will go Monday and get the file. I didn't know this even existed. We refinished the whole house and saved the plumbing for last. What a mistake that was. We truly had no idea. It does look like somewhere along the line someone put in a septic tank. The problem is the leechfield. There isn't one. It is in a rocky cavern. Thank you for your advice. What a tragic ending to a beautiful farmhouse. Respectfully yours. subuje
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Old 07-22-2009, 12:01 AM
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Well we found out from the enviromental that the previous owner tried to get a variance, it was denied. The alternative was to purchase adjoining land that would perk. But the nearest land is to far away. Money isn't the biggest issue, a suitable soil is the issue. This is so disappointing. I had no idea that getting a septic system would be such an obstacle. Now the decision has been made for us.
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Old 07-24-2009, 05:03 PM
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subuje,

Hit the library and find the most recent Mother Earth News (has Fall Planting Guide on the cover). There is information on composting toilets. One of the folks that wrote in was from Crosby, TN and was in a very similar situation. Maybe it will give you some ideas?
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:19 PM
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Dare I hold out hope that I don't have to give up this home?

Subuje
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subuje View Post
Dare I hold out hope that I don't have to give up this home?

Subuje
I don't know. I don't know if the state would legally allow it, what with them considering greywater and blackwater the same. However, this guy said he couldn't get a septic b/c of rocks under the soil, so he was using a composting toilet for blackwater and recycling his greywater. Not a lot of details in the article (was more just folks singing the praises of composting toilets), but maybe some ideas. Here is the issue index. The story was "Composting Toilets: Readers Report." (not linked on the site ) Its a place to start? This site: http://www.earthboundservices.com/septicsystems.asp says that in Vermont, composting toilets will reduce the needed leach field size by 25%. Maybe that will buy you enough?
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:43 PM
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I found a solution I think. A grey water recycle unit. Does anyone think this is a good idea?
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Old 10-12-2009, 06:18 PM
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I did soil profile evaluations for on-site wastewater systems for 13 years in Missouri.

I can tell you what are the number one, two, three, and four problems are in the business.

First, dishonest soil evaluators. Second, ignorant and cowardly administrators. Third, county commissioners and other elected officials who refuse to prosecute cheating or at least take it seriously. Fourth, state officials who operate in CYA fashion, ignoring the scientific facts and common sense.

It's easy to identify the lying soil scientists. Permit records are the way.

Just look at their percentage of standard septic systems, versus the percentage of standard septic systems there should be according to the county rules and the county soil survey. Or, if you know you have some honest, intelligent, and proficient soil scientists, compare the suspect evaluators with the honest ones, in terms of percentages of standard systems, modified standard systems, etc.

Case in point: If you're in the Ozark Highlands region of Missouri, and you have a soil evaluator who never has a system with sand-lined trenches, or who never has a soil with over 70% rock content, then you have a liar. Read about the Hailey soil series, which is extensive enough in the Ozark Highlands physiographic region. It almost always has over 70% rock, certainly always over 50%. A soil evaluator doing hundreds of evaluations over a period of time with none of them showing up as Hailey, is not leading a charmed life. That evaluator is 'passing' soils with extremely high percolation rate, for standard systems, and groundwater pollution is highly likely. And it is being done deliberately, so that the installer, and/or builder, will not 'get angry' because they had to have a higher cost system, and switch to another evaluator trying to find a cheater.

The same goes for the evaluator who in the Ozark Border region, has a rate of shallow placement standard septic systems which is less than 50%. This is because 50 to 70% or more of sites will have a fragipan, requiring at best and at the least a shallow placement system. When a guy has a 90% plus rate of standard septic systems, he is 'passing' alot of soils for 18" or deeper trenches, that are not fit for them. The systems will not last as long as they would have otherwise, there will be a higher rate of outright failures. And/or the crooked installers working with such people will dig deep trenches 4 or 5 five feet deep, through the fragipan restrictive horizon, that may for a time achieve drainage, but do so below the oxygenated zone of the soil, and cause groundwater pollution. Read that well water pollution. Who's well is the closest to the septic system? Just look at the rate of polluted wells in areas of old development where there is extensive acreage of fragipan soils, it will be high, because the old way of dealing with things was to dig deep trenches when encountering the fragipan.

Ignorant and cowardly administrators and inspectors are the number two problem. There are always some good ones, who are bright and notice things, and who do pursue cheating soil evaluators and cheating installers. But most are too unintelligent or lazy to learn their own rules, let alone anticipate cheating and act to prevent or stop it. When they allow cheating to go on, in some cases for years, even when they are informed of it, they do or don't realize that they are sitting on a civil liability powderkeg, and when the percentage of septic system failures gets high enough, and it becomes apparent it was one or two individuals who were the evaluators, investigation will follow, and there will be consequences.

95% of administrators also fail to understand that the system of rules they have creates a playing field, and when they fail to patrol and enforce, that playing field tilts severely toward liars and cheaters, and the result is: the whole program is undermined, the public is encouraged to lie and cheat, the honest public is financially punished, and the environmental quality deteriorates. The most legitimate reason for the government to be involved in septic system regulation is groundwater protection. After this is prevention of disease from surfacing effluent, or disease from effluent running off the property. Following this is protection of lenders and homeowners investment.

County commissioners and other elected officials who refuse to prosecute cheating or at least take it seriously have the same effect even if they by God's grace happen to have an intelligent, diligent, upright, and brave administrator with Judaeo-Christian values. Enough said. That county commission job becomes an important source of income and esteem, and NOBODY wants to rock that boat, because some squeaky wheel might pipe up just before the next election and the griping might cause some vote loss. Never mind if some of the citizenry are drinking what the cheaters are flushing, in karst country.

Finally, after 14 years in Missouri, the state department of health still has not recognized the value of shallow placement septic systems, and tries to force everyone to put in exotic overkill systems that are highly proprietary and cost from $12 to $20 thousand dollars, depending on whether they are required or not in a given area. The state does the opposite of the cheater. The cheater wants to pass everything for a standard system to keep his customers. The state wants to pass everything as the expensive drip soil absorption system, preceded by a Class 1 aeration unit, to cover their _ _ _ . Now, there are certainly areas of Missouri and soil types that need such a system. But, there is no point making a very high percentage of people put them in, when soil science, sewage science, and common sense says it is not necessary.

Case in point for this: the fragipan soil. The state wants 36" of soil over the fragipan as a minimum for a shallow placement system. Thousands of systems are functioning well and long with less than 24", as allowed by local rules, and where there is sufficient thickness of soil material that has sufficient permeability, and slope gradient. Shallow trenches plus a protective up-slope interceptor drain, to divert subsurface water around the absorption field, work, and it's been proven by 18 years experience. Research in Arkansas, and Wisconsin, verifies it, also. And it's common sense: in nature, wastes are deposited in or on the topsoil, spread out, and not concentrated. With septic systems, shallow trench depth should be the rule, and the best possible gravity flow distribution system the number two goal.

The experience with shallow placement systems on fragipan soils in southwest Missouri has been excellent; and it does not even take into account the possible further benefits that could come in combination with alternating dual fields and/or blackwater-graywater separation.

But, alas, the helpless state bureaucrats, where they have jurisdiction, or the inept county officials in some cases, must say to the young newly married couple, whose parents deeded them land for a used mobile home, "Sorry, you must have a drip soil absorption system preceded by a Class 1 aeration unit." And it will cost $11,000 if they are lucky, instead of the $4,000 shallow placement system, gravity flow, they could have had, that would have done just as good a job of cleansing the septic tank effluent, keeping it underground, and lasting decades.

It's also stupid for government to require such systems when soils don't require it, because it deprives the government of taxes. There is a finite amount of property tax rate that the public will tolerate, or that is even economically feasible (witness the exodus of people from certain high property tax states). When an expensive septic system is unnecessarily required, just to make administrators feel safe, the annual costs for maintenance and electricity begin to rival current property tax amounts in many rural areas. The public thus can tolerate less, and the government risks getting less when it needs it.

Further, the extra 6 or 10 thousand dollars will end up in a mortgage, and the homeowner will have a higher payment, and thus less money to spend on other things, usually locally, generating sales taxes. That's if the higher cost doesn't discourage building altogether, which also has serious economic and employment impact. Instead of an unnecessary system costing the homeowner an extra $6,000 or $8,000, when the interest is factored in over the life of the mortgage, it will rather be $18,000 or $24,000.

Last edited by veteransoilscientist; 10-12-2009 at 07:12 PM.. Reason: improvement
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