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View Poll Results: What cities/counties are most likely to consolidate?
Memphis-Shelby County 0 0%
Knoxville-Knox County 2 20.00%
Chattanooga-Hamilton County 5 50.00%
Other (please specify) 3 30.00%
Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-04-2011, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Parkridge, East Knoxville, TN
462 posts, read 918,115 times
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Knoxville and knox county have about the same level of affluence which I think would work in favor of consolidation. Farragut would not be happy though
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Old 03-04-2011, 12:33 PM
 
Location: East Memphis
845 posts, read 2,095,466 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ryall View Post
I don't really think any cities are "likely" to merge as most attempts are rejected. With the Memphis & Shelby referendum, it barely passed by a sliver in the city. The county, I believe, was 70-80% against it.

Proponents in Louisville pushed hard and did it, but it has very luke warm reviews and no major savings were identified. In fact, cost of services has increased and I don't think the citizens saw any tax breaks either. I understand the duplication argument, but it is pretty factual that the larger a government body gets, the more inefficient it becomes. I for one am against consolidation. I believe most people like autonomous local representation, even at a municipal level. Although, one major problem Memphis had was business interfacing with 2 governments, but with the arrival of AC Wharton & Mark Lutrell the game has now been changed. Enter the EDGE commitee, a one stop shop for for business/ economic development.

I like AC Wharton, but have a different stance on consolidation. Although, he does realize that it doesn't stop there and he has been implementing needed streamlining between the city & county and also within themselves as well which I think is absolutely the right direction for Big Shelby.

As for school consolidation, I will be voting "NO" next Tuesday. MCS needs to be broken into a "chancellor" type system with sub-districts, much less merge with SCS. Although it could very well pass, unsuspecting Memphians who do not understand what is happening don't realize that the Norris-bill could literally sweep the rug from underneath their feet. Don't expect Martavius Jones or Tomeka Hart to owe up to that fact because it is their fault and they are just now saving face. Also, this is just the beginning of this political movement. I would expect the ban on SSDs & MSDs to be lifted and seeing them pop up all over the state of TN, especially Davidson & Hamilton co.




So, do you honestly believe the ban on SSD's and MSD's will not be lifted in Shelby County if the MCS charter surrender fails? Shelby County Schools are going to be separated from MCS either way. They will either separate by new MSD's with the Norris bill, or by having the state pass legislation to lift the ban on SSD's if the charter surrender does not pass on 3-8-11. SCS wants to permanently wall themselves off from Memphis and they have the power in the state Legislature to get it done. Surrendering the MCS charter is a no brainer. It is all about funding. If there is no MCS in the future, the county is responsible for all funding and the county outside of Memphis could never use their tax dollars only for schools outside of Memphis. They will have to help fund the entire county system. If there are 2 SSD's in Shelby County there is the possibility (even if very small) for schools to have taxing authority and for each SSD to be responsible for funding itself. That would be a disaster for Memphis because taxes in the city would have to go up substantially since 2/3 of the students in the county are in Memphis, but only about half of the residential property tax base is in Memphis. Raising taxes will make the City of Memphis even less desirable. Then you have this issue of the FORCED contribution from the city government to MCS. The Memphis Government is currently required to give MCS about 78 million dollars a year since they voluntarily provided funding in the past. This is a burden that the city government can no longer afford and a major reason city taxes are so high. Surrendering the charter may do away with this forced, perpetual contribution. I have already voted early, and I voted YES because I understand Memphis can no longer afford MCS. Also, without surrendering the charter MCS will never be under a chancellor model with autonomous sub districts. The current system is broken and needs to be redeveloped. Continuing the status quo will never lead to the change you are hoping for.
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Memphis,TN
628 posts, read 1,429,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigertate View Post
So, do you honestly believe the ban on SSD's and MSD's will not be lifted in Shelby County if the MCS charter surrender fails?

No, I do think it will be lifted because of 1970s-style retaliation-brand politics like Tomeka Hart's. That lady is a moron and you can tell she's in way over her head. She thought she was going to just get her way then the situation exploded in her face and all she can do is sit there with a plastered smile and use the word "illogical" 10 times a paragraph. Tigertate, no one is going to put up with the crap anymore. People have been pushed too far. Look who else is on TV grinning & drooling over this... Could it be Willie Herenton? Yes, indeed. AC Wharton was even quoted before assuming Memphis mayor that these 2 school systems cannot be merged in a shotgun wedding without great consequence to our community. Well, Tomeka & Martavius went for it and here we are. The Shelby county tax payers outside of Memphis pay almost half the MCS budget and that was given absolutely no respect by these people. They laughed and went for the "mob rules" mentality. Also, remember they were offered negotiations!!! I feel very sorry for the children of MCS who could suffer for this, I really do, but this county & state cannot tolerate anymore of this behavior from idiots like this.

Quote:
It is all about funding.


Often claimed to be PC on TV, but couldn't be farther from the truth. This whole situation is about a lot of things, one of which is funding. Do you think the middle class people in the county are graciously awaiting the type of leadership that poor neighborhoods in Memphis love to elect so it can rule over a super-district school system that is nearly unmanageable and the 16th largest in the nation? I'm pretty sure they're not.

Quote:
If there is no MCS in the future, the county is responsible for all funding and the county outside of Memphis could never use their tax dollars only for schools outside of Memphis. They will have to help fund the entire county system. If there are 2 SSD's in Shelby County there is the possibility (even if very small) for schools to have taxing authority and for each SSD to be responsible for funding itself. That would be a disaster for Memphis because taxes in the city would have to go up substantially since 2/3 of the students in the county are in Memphis, but only about half of the residential property tax base is in Memphis. Raising taxes will make the City of Memphis even less desirable. Then you have this issue of the FORCED contribution from the city government to MCS. The Memphis Government is currently required to give MCS about 78 million dollars a year since they voluntarily provided funding in the past. This is a burden that the city government can no longer afford and a major reason city taxes are so high. Surrendering the charter may do away with this forced, perpetual contribution. I have already voted early, and I voted YES because I understand Memphis can no longer afford MCS. Also, without surrendering the charter MCS will never be under a chancellor model with autonomous sub districts. The current system is broken and needs to be redeveloped. Continuing the status quo will never lead to the change you are hoping for.


I agree with many things mentioned, but resolving these issues isn't going to happen with the way Tomeka tried to do it. They tried to tell her, people warned her and now, I regret, they are going to show her. You can't just kick around the people that pay the bills around here and live off of them like parasites without consequence. If she is allowed to destroy all public education in this county you will see middle class flight to adjacent counties AND NO ONE WILL BE PAYING THE BILLS, LEAVING MEMPHIS IN FAR LESS OF A POSITION TO BETTER ITSELF. I truly hope cooler heads can come up with something better.

The charter surrender is probably going to pass anyways, but the shape of the future will not be left to Tomeka Hart. Best wishes to everyone, children & parents, Shelby County & Memphis.

Last edited by Johnny Ryall; 03-04-2011 at 03:22 PM..
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:23 PM
 
Location: East Memphis
845 posts, read 2,095,466 times
Reputation: 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Ryall View Post
No, I do think it will be lifted because of 1970s-style retaliation-brand politics like Tomeka Hart's. That lady is a moron and you can tell she's in way over her head. She thought she was going to just get her way then the situation exploded in her face and all she can do is sit there with a plastered smile and use the word "illogical" 10 times a paragraph. Tigertate, no one is going to put up with the crap anymore. People have been pushed too far. Look who else is on TV grinning & drooling over this... Could it be Willie Herenton? Yes, indeed. AC Wharton was even quoted before assuming Memphis mayor that these 2 school systems cannot be merged in a shotgun wedding without great consequence to our community. Well, Tomeka & Martavius went for it and here we are. The Shelby county tax payers pay almost half the MCS budget and that was given absolutely no respect by these people. They laughed and went for the "mob rules" mentality. Also, remember they were offered negotiations!!! I feel very sorry for the children of MCS who will suffer for this, I really do, but this county & state cannot tolerate anymore of this behavior from idiots like this.




Often claimed to be PC on TV, but couldn't be farther from the truth. This whole situation is about a lot of things, one of which is funding. Do you think the middle class people in the county are graciously awaiting the type of leadership that inner-city Memphis loves to elect so it can rule over a super-district school system that is nearly unmanageable and the 16th largest in the nation? I'm pretty sure they're not.



I agree with many things mentioned, but resolving these issues isn't going to happen with the way Tomeka tried to do it. They tried to tell her, people warned her and now, I regret, they are going to show her. You can't just kick around the people that pay the bills around here and live off of them like parasites without consequence. If she is allowed to destroy all public education in this county you will see middle class flight to adjacent counties AND NO ONE WILL BE PAYING THE BILLS, LEAVING MEMPHIS IN A FAR LESS BETTER POSITION.


I do not believe there was ever any mutually beneficial negotiations offered. SCS wants SSD and any negotiations would begin and end there. The MCS board interpreted the U of M study to say that SCS having a SSD would mean a reduction in funding to MCS. With this information they took the action they felt was necessary.


I agree with what you say about a super-sized district and the representation problem for the suburban residents, but flight can and will occur regardless. If taxes in Memphis shoot up there will be flight from Memphis the same way there is the potential for flight from the burbs. Anybody who would really consider leaving Germantown or Collierville for rural Fayette County because of schools is being short sighted. Schools over there are just as bad as MCS and there is no infrastructure. I think many people would just opt for private schools before leaving for Fayette County. About 50% of people in Germantown already have their children in private school. The best case scenario in my mind is for the charter surrender to pass. That way the funding issues are cleared up and the suburbs can create their own municipal school districts. The new SCS, which will be the old MCS with the unincorporated areas of the county included. This system can then be redeveloped under a chancellor model with 4 or 5 smaller, autonomous school districts. If the charter surrender fails I do not believe this would be possible.
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Old 03-04-2011, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Memphis,TN
628 posts, read 1,429,940 times
Reputation: 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigertate View Post
The best case scenario...
I agree with a lot of things you say, Tigertate and I'm glad you actually know some of the issues we're facing. I edited my post with some things I thought to clarify.

Polls show that the surrender will pass by a slim margin with city voters. If that goes forward, I hope the appointed transition committee & the county commission can work out a plan that benefits all.
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Old 03-04-2011, 03:05 PM
 
11,603 posts, read 31,766,251 times
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Nashville is not the only city in Tennessee to have dissolved into its county. Hartsville/Trousdale County and Lynchburg/Moore County have also consolidated into metropolitan governments.

I don't think Knoxville and Knox County will ever consolidate. Most Knox County residents don't seem to think there's any benefit to consolidation since their property taxes are half what city residents pay and the school system is already consolidated. Interestingly, of the 400,000 or so people who have Knoxville addresses, only 180,000 actually live in the city.
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Old 03-04-2011, 03:21 PM
 
6,385 posts, read 10,362,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMT View Post
Nashville is not the only city in Tennessee to have dissolved into its county. Hartsville/Trousdale County and Lynchburg/Moore County have also consolidated into metropolitan governments.

I don't think Knoxville and Knox County will ever consolidate. Most Knox County residents don't seem to think there's any benefit to consolidation since their property taxes are half what city residents pay and the school system is already consolidated. Interestingly, of the 400,000 or so people who have Knoxville addresses, only 180,000 actually live in the city.
Consolidation does not mean that the city and county will have the same property tax rate.

Nashville has a rate of $4.13 for the urban service district, and a rate of $3.56 for the general service district.

Knoxville has a overall rate of $4.82 and the county has a rate of $2.36.

My guess would be the county rate would go up if it happened in Knox County, but they could certainly maintain two separate tax rates and services provided. The question would be, is there a need to? Now that the county schools are combined, the only services I could see that could consider consolidating are police and fire. That doesn't necessarily require a consolidation of the government, though.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:29 PM
 
1,703 posts, read 5,544,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashvols View Post
I guess I could see Jackson being a decent candidate for consolidation, especially since there are very few other incorporated places within the county (Medon, Three Way, and part of Humboldt).

The thing a lot of people have to remember is that consolidation does not necessarily see their property taxes go way up. If it is anything like Nashville, there would be different rates for the 'old' Jackson city limits and the rest of the county. Essentially, the city government ceases to exist...it's not exactly like the city services suddenly extend to the entire county.

But that's an interesting point with Jackson being a potential contender. Do you think it would work and/or be a good thing for the county in general?
Hey Nashvols --

Sorry so late getting back to the discussion. (And it is a great discussion, btw.)

Thanks for bringing up the point about taxes. I know that it's pretty common to have an urban service area (I think that's what it's called) with more services and higher taxes. And I'm sure that could happen in Jackson-Madison County. I don't think folks in Medon would be able to get the same types of services that people in Midtown Jackson would get.

That being said, the anti-consolidation folks will always use taxes as a way to get people to vote against consolidation. Whether taxes would go up or not doesn't matter. It's the very idea, the very possibility (whether real or not) that it could happen that would scare the county residents.

So I totally agree with you on the basis of reality. But on the basis of perception, I think it's a different ballgame.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:41 PM
 
6,385 posts, read 10,362,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strumpeace View Post
Hey Nashvols --

Sorry so late getting back to the discussion. (And it is a great discussion, btw.)

Thanks for bringing up the point about taxes. I know that it's pretty common to have an urban service area (I think that's what it's called) with more services and higher taxes. And I'm sure that could happen in Jackson-Madison County. I don't think folks in Medon would be able to get the same types of services that people in Midtown Jackson would get.

That being said, the anti-consolidation folks will always use taxes as a way to get people to vote against consolidation. Whether taxes would go up or not doesn't matter. It's the very idea, the very possibility (whether real or not) that it could happen that would scare the county residents.

So I totally agree with you on the basis of reality. But on the basis of perception, I think it's a different ballgame.
Absolutely. Especially in this current political environment where taxes are the debil.

I think that taxes very well could go up for county residents if there is consolidation. Sometimes more services would be involved, sometimes not. I think it makes more sense in counties where there is only one primary municipality, or just one incorporated place (such as tiny towns like Lynchburg and Hartsville). Just out of speculation, I wonder if the same thing could work in Morristown/Hamblen County...it's a very small county, too (size wise).
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Old 03-04-2011, 07:41 PM
 
11,603 posts, read 31,766,251 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashvols View Post
Absolutely. Especially in this current political environment where taxes are the debil.

I think that taxes very well could go up for county residents if there is consolidation. Sometimes more services would be involved, sometimes not. I think it makes more sense in counties where there is only one primary municipality, or just one incorporated place (such as tiny towns like Lynchburg and Hartsville). Just out of speculation, I wonder if the same thing could work in Morristown/Hamblen County...it's a very small county, too (size wise).
I mentioned Morristown/Hamblen County in an earlier post. They did have it on the ballot in 1978 and consolidation failed by quite a large margin (70% opposed consolidation). I imagine that it would fail by an even larger margin today, although from an outsider's perspective it looks like Morristown/Hamblen County would be a prime candidate for consolidation.
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its - possession
it's - contraction of it is
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there - referring to a place
loose - opposite of tight
lose - opposite of win
who's - contraction of who is
whose - possession
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