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Old 08-05-2015, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Cumberland Co., TN
20,042 posts, read 20,541,910 times
Reputation: 20398

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
Be careful doing research on divisive topics. There is a lot of info out there, published by both sides, that features so much "spin" it borders on outright lies. I believe the current term used to describe such information is "woo", although usually that term is used more for pseudoscience rather than revisionist history.

The best place to start with zero spin is with actual Civil War Era documents that are short, to the point, and written by the people who actually voted to secede specifically to convey the precise reasons why they did so:
I do believe that is what I suggested, actual documents and letters. As well take things in context and don't try to hold that eras standards and beliefs to todays. It was a far different time and a time when much change was occurring.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
I recommend starting with Mississippi, as it's the shortest. For a lark, count the number of sentences that reference the different reasons currently used to explain the war (slavery, taxes, states' rights, etc.) to see which reason the authors considered the most important.
One might also keep in mind that some things were important to some states and others no so much. Some states were pretty much neutral until the fight started and remember, that as today, issues/laws debated and held by the politicians and the wealthy in power do not necessarily reflect the will of the majority of citizens.

 
Old 08-05-2015, 09:24 AM
 
6,385 posts, read 10,381,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
I know more people of various races, religions, and sexual preferences than I can bother to count, and I have more similarities with all of them than I have differences. And yet, if I were to listen to Faux News or MSNBC or conservative talk radio or Huff Po I would find out that we have nothing in common and we should all hate each other.
LOL....well said.
 
Old 08-05-2015, 09:31 AM
 
5,113 posts, read 4,768,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post

You're halfway there. The full and correct statement should be:

"It's the radical progressive activists [working together with the radical conservative hatemongers] who are [] baiting our society for political gain (divide and conquer)."

I know more people of various races, religions, and sexual preferences than I can bother to count, and I have more similarities with all of them than I have differences. And yet, if I were to listen to Faux News or MSNBC or conservative talk radio or Huff Po I would find out that we have nothing in common and we should all hate each other.
I agree that it's both political sides working together to divide the people and I agree that Fox news is just as bad at it as any left wing propaganda outlet. It's the classic left-right paradigm where both parties works together to split the people (the voters). When the democrats are in power half the people (dems) support it's bad policies and laws passed and the republicans reject it and complain. When the republicans are in power half the people (repubs) support it's bad policies and laws passed and the democrats reject it and complain. But in reality the democrats and republicans have the same goals that the people as a whole don't like and don't want ... but at any given time half the people reluctantly accept it if their party is in power.

Last edited by Vascodagama; 08-05-2015 at 09:43 AM..
 
Old 08-05-2015, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Cumberland Co., TN
20,042 posts, read 20,541,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigizug View Post
How is this tolerance and attitude of the Confederate flag viewed by blacks in Tennessee? Growing up on the West coast and living in the Upper Midwest, I've never understood this mentality. Seems to represent a period of time when black slavery was accepted as the norm. I know whites have their pride in their history, yet I don't get it when the flag represents a time of severe oppression for blacks.
But so did the American flag.It represented both slavery and oppression of blacks, in the south and the north. During this time in history (mid 1800s) slavery world wide had been legal and accepted but attitudes were changing as countries involved in the slave trade were coming to reject this practice and abolish it. So along the same line of thinking the American flag represented oppression of blacks even after the civil war.

For many true southerners the flag represent a time of much sorry. The country was at war and the issues were not solely the expansion of slavery, but taxation, economics and what was seen as a all to powerful central government when all along there was a strong association with states rights. Many in the south were so isolated that thy had no understanding of any of the issues yet the war was raging in literally their yard. To them they were being attacked. After the war it was very difficult both financially and otherwise for the south. There was a gaping wound that took years to begin to heal. So the flag represents those lost to war and the struggles to rebuild and become one amidst oppression and condemnation from the north. It represents a strength that though the confederacy was beaten the people of the south were not destroyed and still would retain their identity and dignity.

And this is where the two sides knock heads. Neither can or will accept the others feelings on the matter. But no matter what truths we hold the bottom line is this country is suppose to uphold individual freedoms. Condemning, censoring and trying to ban something even if that thing irritates others sensitivities goes against our individual rights and is slippery slope we might not want to venture onto. If people desire that others are to be tolerant of their beliefs and expression then we must all be tolerant of others, even if its a bit of a pill to swallow.

I saw a new confederate flag up just this morning, at a business.
 
Old 08-05-2015, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,774 posts, read 3,684,721 times
Reputation: 4241
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares View Post
I do believe that is what I suggested, actual documents and letters. As well take things in context and don't try to hold that eras standards and beliefs to todays. It was a far different time and a time when much change was occurring.
Of course it should be taken into context. Someone who owned slaves at that time shouldn't be condemned for that one fact. It was the accepted norm.

But saying the Civil War was fought over the Cotton Tax is like saying WWII was fought over Polish oppression of ethnic Germans. Both were important factors, but take those factors away and the war would have still occurred.

All the factors are important. The Cotton Tax was real and a extreme sore spot. The issue of States Rights vs Federal Rights was real and had been simmering since the original Articles of Confederation (this nation's first constitution which was heavily biased toward State's Rights) was rejected. But pretty much all other issues were directly or indirectly related to slavery. The Fugitive Slave Act, Westward Expansion, all of it.

Take all non-slavery factors away and the core Southern States (SC, AL, MS, LA, TX) would have still seceded and kicked off the war. Likewise, if the southern states had agreed to abolish slavery there would have been no war even if all the other factors stayed the same. Lots of factors were important, but they were all overshadowed by slavery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares View Post
One might also keep in mind that some things were important to some states and others no so much. Some states were pretty much neutral until the fight started and remember, that as today, issues/laws debated and held by the politicians and the wealthy in power do not necessarily reflect the will of the majority of citizens.
Excellent point, and TN is an excellent example of this. The eastern third of the state (one of the three stars in our flag) was heavily pro-union and even tried to secede from the state. Ironically, the state government: 1) rejected the will of the eastern population to split the state saying the group was more important that the individual wishes; 2) split the state off from the USA saying the individual wishes were more important than the group; then 3) spent most of the war trying to control Eastern TN with Martial Law while simultaneously trying to fight off the "invading" US army.
 
Old 08-05-2015, 03:20 PM
 
1,511 posts, read 2,062,221 times
Reputation: 2592
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares View Post

I saw a new confederate flag up just this morning, at a business.
Is this located in Cookeville or Crossville? Or a surrounding smaller community? Just trying to get a feel for the area.
 
Old 08-05-2015, 06:02 PM
 
14,944 posts, read 26,665,395 times
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