Non Electric Homestead McMinn County (Knoxville, Chattanooga: lawyers, legal, farm)

[redbean]

Forest Breath, I am very sorry to hear about these troubles. Hazel must either not have much experience with people (making decisions) or be in the beginning stages of Alzheimers.

Get an excellent lawyer. Make sure there are no ties to this "reverend" or his "church". Consider investing the good reverends present circumstances. Is he behind on the horses feed bill, for instance? I have a feeling you can find out some dirt if you try.

If you can prove intent, and discredit him at the same time, it would be great. Hang in there.

[harry chickpea]

Originally Posted by Forest Breath

I regret that I have not been able to update in awhile. I am not sure how often I will be able to update, due to the way we live and also the horrible situation that has developed with us living our dream. I am not looking for any sympathy in this post and certainly do not need the lectures on what I should have done. I just simply want to update everyone on the situation as my posts may change a bit from our day to day life to the horrible situation we are now facing with the home.

Jimmy and Hazel came to me in March and proposed a deal for me to obtain their farm. Basically I was to pay an agreed upon amount per month, build my home there, take care of them, share our lives together, never put them in a nursing home. Upon the death of both of them, the land would become mine at that time, along with their house and the 2 acres it sits on, with no more payments required. Jimmy had an attorney getting the papers, deed, will, etc. together and assured me many times, as well as Hazel assuring me, that it was taken care of and he was getting me a copy of the papers just 3 days before he died. He saw his lawyer that week to “finalize it all”. I never wanted to push Hazel after Jimmy died, but a few weeks ago I told her she was going to have to make her way to the lawyer and get me a copy of those papers for my safety deposit box because if something happened to her I would have nothing to state what the agreement was.

So Jimmy and Hazel helped us build the home, made plans for the farm, we planted fruit trees in the field that was to be the orchard, we fixed culverts, planted various trees all over the farm, built a family picnic area by the branch, dug a spring, root cellar, and took care of them, mowing, cleaning, cooking, nursing, taking to the Doc, getting meds, digging graves and even living with Hazel for weeks after Jimmy died.

A week ago on Monday night the 13th, Hazel was making plans to sell me a Buick she no longer wanted or needed. It is an old car, 1988, and my car tore up just a few weeks ago. The blue book value was 600 bucks. She said that her preacher said $1000 was fair and that is what she would sell it for. I thought that was strange and told her I would think about it.

This “preacher” married Jimmy and Hazel 7 years ago and they were members of his church, although they never attended a service there. They joined the church because Jimmy needed someone to preside over the graveside service and since he married them, he wanted him to do the service. The preacher said he could not unless they were members….which is UNTRUE…but whatever. So they joined the church. When Jimmy was literally on his death bed, the preacher, I will call him “Bob” started hanging out A LOT, he spent a lot of time comforting Hazel. He was shocked when Jimmy informed him they had sold the farm to us, because he wanted to buy the farm years ago and Jimmy would not sell it. Actually, he and Jimmy got into an argument about it. Jimmy said he MIGHT sell him an acre some day. So this man does not show up for 7 years and then he is at Hazel’s side as Jimmy died.

I have discovered now that right after he died, and we started staying at home and not with Hazel every night, Bob started visiting Hazel daily. Then Hazel informed us he had convinced her that the deal made with me and Chris was illegal (?) and not valid as Jimmy was incompetent. (Let me remind you the deal was made before ANYONE knew that Jimmy had cancer and he was very competent). So he convinced Hazel she needed to go to the lawyer and stop things, she can “sell” us the 5 acre field the house is on to “appease” us, she MUST make him executor of the estate legally, she will not be able to live on her social security, I may die before her, and they promised to sell him an acre of land. So Hazel, in her grief, confusion and vulnerability believed everything he said. She would sell us up to 5 acres for $6000 and acre and if we want more we have to pay $7500 and acre. Bob told Chris he was going to “make” Jimmy stick to his agreement of buying an acre and he wants the acre right next to Hazel’s house (which includes the first 300 feet of our driveway). We are going to have to build a new driveway on the backside of the field, through the woods, that is about 1200-1500 feet, cutting down hundreds of trees. He kept telling Chris Jimmy was incompetent and crap. He was looking for a water source for his horses he plans to put there. He told Chris he is going to lease the rest of the farm from Hazel for his horses, he wants the field beside out house where the spring and pond are, he does not want us to buy any of the woods. He even parked his horse trailer on top of the hill where my daughter had already started making plans to put her a trailer until her house was built in another field. Hazel switches back and forth from Jimmy signed the papers, to Jimmy did not sign, to the lawyer said he made Jimmy think it was OK but knew it was not so he never finished the plan, to Jimmy was sick and he could not do the papers for him…..which I know is a lie because Jimmy started those papers and paid that lawyer in April and he did not know he had cancer until the end of May.
So as it stands now, Hazel is being completed controlled by Bob, who she trusts as a man of God and he makes sure she is not around when he tells us what we can and cannot do with the land. We are helpless and have just fallen apart and cried now for a week straight. I find it hard to trust people and you just would never expect someone in their mid 80’s would hurt you so deeply.

I have receipts signed by Jimmy and Hazel where I paid a large amount of money to them each month for a “land payment” as it is written on the receipt. I have witnesses from the Master Mason at his lodge to his Doctor, neighbors, etc. that he told them he sold us the farm. I have invoices from Lowe’s and Hiwassee Builder Supply that Jimmy signed with the material for the home delivered to the property in my name. I have pictures of Jimmy and Hazel helping us build the house. And more and more and more. I have no clue what will be helpful and what won’t. We have starting accepting that the farm will not be ours, but we are desperately trying to save our home that we built by hand with Jimmy and the five acres it sits on. Bob will not let her go lower than $6000 an acre and if we have to pay that for the home we fell in love with, we will. I have already paid some of that in monthly payments to them.

Our lives has changed this week forever. I do not know that we will ever trust anyone again. This has hurt us more than anyone could ever imagine. We cannot sleep, we have both lost weight this week, we are prone to break down in tears at any given moment, we do not know whether to continue our plans and work on the house or just walk away and rent a house somewhere. It is just killing us. Hazel is blank and lets Bob do all of her thinking and talking right now. We have no money, we are in no way rich, coming up with almost $30,000 is just hard for us to imagine possible.

So I have an appointment with an attorney on Thursday. I have no clue how much it will cost or if there is a chance in hades we can save our home. I don’t know what is binding and what is not. It is a mess, a horrible mess that has come close to destroying us. We worked 16-18 hours a day on our dream, we had just finished getting the wood stove installed a few hours before Hazel sprung this on us. We thought no matter what happens, we have a secure home, wood and food and we are ready for winter, we cold relax even if just a little bit. Now our life, home, dream has been turned upside down and virtually destroyed, while Bob makes plans for his horses and strokes Hazel’s ego to keep his plan in action. It is sad, devastating and I have no clue what our future holds now.

As for the house and such. We have the wood stove installed and it works well. I got an Ashley wood heater from Freecycle. We have about 4 cords of wood chopped. We have plenty of water. We are hoping to finish the root cellar if we can mentally get ourselves together to do it. I have found 2 persimmon trees and a half dozen black walnut trees on the 5 acres. I have about 10 gallons of walnuts in the hull and a gallon of persimmons waiting to be canned. I have some meat to dry into jerky as well.

This entire thing has been an experience and now we face the toughest struggle of all. I am continuing to keep my end of the promise to Jimmy and when Bob is not at Hazel’s home, I go down and take care of Hazel, but sadly the love is no longer there. We are hurt, deeply hurt to the point of falling apart. Monday night I ended up at the emergency room because of this. We won’t be getting over it anytime soon. If we have to walk away and pick up the pieces, I just don’t know what it will do to us.

So there is the update, sad as it is. A warning to all, I don’t care if it is a family member that you love dearly and think will never hurt you….get agreements in writing as soon as they are made. Death and greed can turn angels into demons.

But for the record....we love the lifestyle. We have no regrets with that choice. Everything about it is amazing and we love it so deeply and plan to continue as long as we are allowed to.

Interesting turn of events. The obvious lessons apply. I'll post in this forum this once to point out the issues and methods of correction, so that others might learn. This is too important to keep quiet, and I'll trust that my response will not be tweaked by a moderator.

The first issue is your going into the situation without a written contract. You now know the problems with that, and there is no point belaboring that failing, other than to say that before one stick was erected or one hole dug, the paperwork should have been completed.

Your second issue is the thrust of the agreement you made with Jimmy and Hazel. "Basically I was to pay an agreed upon amount per month, build my home there, take care of them, share our lives together, never put them in a nursing home. Upon the death of both of them, the land would become mine at that time, along with their house and the 2 acres it sits on, with no more payments required."

Since Jimmy died before you could "work out" your part of the bargain, you haven't continued to reside with Hazel in her home to care for her, and the agreement was never put into writing, the agreement may be null and void anyway. There has to be value exchanged in a valid contract, and it is expected to be more or less equal. You wouldn't want to cheat Hazel out of the money she needs to live on comfortably, just as you wouldn't want to lose your investment of money and labor.

The preacher, on one hand, is working in Hazel's best interest, and on the other hand is being totally self-serving.

What is needed is an amicable solution to Hazel's needs and your needs, and to get the preacher out of the mix.

Here is one way to proceed:

First, find the denomination of the preacher. If his is a stand alone congregation, you may have a difficult time. If it is not, go to a town at least a couple hundred miles away and find a church of the same denomination. Contact the preacher there. Without naming names or giving any indication that the preacher in your town is of the same denomination, lay the situation out before the preacher and ask for advice and guidance. Find out if the preacher has broken any ethics code of the church. I am of the strong opinion that he has, by attempting personal gain in addition to bereavement counseling.

Next, find out the hierarchy of the church and who would be the spiritual leader of the preachers, and that person's superior or board of peers or advisers, and if possible, the attorney for the church. Don't do anything with that information yet.

When you go to your attorney, be totally candid about the situation, show the documentation here, have the name and phone of the attorney that Jimmy used in drawing up papers, have the names, phone numbers and addresses of witnesses, and copies of your canceled checks. Be clear and concise and willing to negotiate a different deal with Hazel.

Now comes the fun part. Present the idea that you hire an attorney to represent Hazel's interests alone, and suggest that in the interest of fairness to her, that the church be contacted and advised of the conflict of interest that the preacher has. Have Hazel's attorney request that the church send a different preacher for Hazel's bereavement counseling and the current preacher be told to stay away until the situation is resolved.

If the preacher refuses, he risks censure from his church, and the church could risk a lawsuit. Chances are he'll back off and try to work behind the scene. If he doesn't, then there is the possibility of your bringing in other preachers to visit with Hazel. If you really want what is best for her, and you think she is being taken advantage of by a man of the cloth, they may be happy to set her on a more spiritual path (and keep the offending preacher busy defending himself).

A reasonable deal to expect would be as follows:

Parcel off a portion of the land according to YOUR needs (not the preacher's wishes) including your drive and the spring you need, some woods, etc. Five to ten acres is a decent homestead. (email me with an exact location and I'll take a look to try to find out some stuff about the land and area.)

Have a couple of realtors affidavit the going value of the land. Negotiate that the acre the house is on and the current access easement is an absolute requirement, and that that land is yours in exchange for monies previously paid and services previously rendered. The other acres that you want must then be negotiated as your having first option, or preferably a lease to buy contract.

Such a contract might be a nominal payment of a couple hundred dollars a month plus limited care for Hazel if she is incapacitated, to allow her to remain in her own home, with the signed agreement stating that if this is done the land is yours free and clear upon her death. A simpler instrument might be a sale to you with her holding the mortgage, and a codicil forgiving the balance of the mortgage upon her death. There should be no need for you to come up with the full amount at this time. If Hazel got it, I can guarantee that at least 10% would immediately end up in the preacher's pocket and her will would likely contain other juicy tidbits for the preacher or church.

It is not reasonable for you to expect to own the entire farm upon Hazel's death, and I suspect that the preacher used that as leverage to work Hazel towards his own ends. Go into the process trying to be fair between Hazel and yourself, and you may have good results.

I won't go into how Jimmy's ghost could haunt the preacher.

[Bones]

Thanks for some great info for Forest Breath and others to follow....

[kygman]

Harry, if I was close enough to drive down where Forest Breath lives, I would print out what you said and take it to her. She may not be able to get on a computer until it's all over. Good points!

[Beretta]

Originally Posted by kygman

Harry, if I was close enough to drive down where Forest Breath lives, I would print out what you said and take it to her. She may not be able to get on a computer until it's all over. Good points!

She was here this afternoon after Bones' post.

[Forest Breath]

I was able to read responses before I left work yesterday. I had a million things going on here and was unable to respond, but I did read it. I would like to interject a few things. I appreciate responses to my situation. As for hashing out what I should have done, I expect that. It goes without saying. I should have known better and no matter how much I trusted Jimmy or the agreement or whatever, I was wrong in letting him help me build that house without a deed or signed agreement in my hand. I expect people to point that out to me as it is a given, it was stupid but I did it and have to suck up and accept that fact.

I would not look at posts here as legal advice. I look at them as suggestions, ideas offered by people who care enough to respond. I almost cried yesterday when Harry Chickpea responded in this thread and here is why….

I would NOT have been able to complete this house to a livable condition without the advice of Harry Chickpea. When the posts stopped here, he continued to help me through email and I respect him a GREAT deal. I adore him and hope that if my life ever affords me the opportunity, that I get the chance to meet him and give him a proper thank you for everything, every single bit of advice, every suggestion, idea and thought he has taken time to share with me because at times when I was about ready to just call it quits, he explained things in an understandable way and was patient and more helpful than anyone in helping me build my home. I am forever grateful to him and his kindness and to know he put his pride aside and came to this thread to acknowledge my situation and once again offer his wisdom to me, warmed my heart and made me think if for an instant that there ARE still kind people in this world.

I posted my situation because people were asking for updates and as hard as it was for me to say, this dream I have shared with you all has fallen to pieces, as hard as it was to suck it up and acknowledge my mistake, I wanted to ensure that maybe no one else follows my steps and loses their dream as well. No I did not want sympathy and I have beaten myself up enough over what I should have done but a kind person saying, Oh Cyndi, why did you not get that in writing before now, is more of a kind statement to me, not chastising.

As for the situation, I have an appointment with an attorney tomorrow at 2pm. He is for the most part the best land dispute attorney in this county, once being the assistant DA and has not lost a land dispute case since he went private practice. I do not know how much he will cost at this point, but will know tomorrow. I called a surveyor and it looks like to have 5 acres surveyed off is about 1,050 bucks, the driveway 540 and IF she will sell is the 9 acres straight across will be 1400, plus the driveway cost. I will not do it unless the lawyer has it in the contract the price can be paid by me BUT deducted from the total land cost. I also want it in the contract I can pay the land off early if I choose to do so. So hopefully the legal arrangements can be made and we will at least get our five acres of land. That is the minimum we want, the maximum being the 9 or so acres straight across the back. But my priority for a week now is to secure that five acres of land our home is on, so we will not lose the home.

I appreciate everyone’s concerns, responses and advice in this thread. It is hard to read emotions sometime son internet forums, but I know some of these posts are deeply sincere. I appreciate them all, but I do have to say because of what has occurred this entire year with this situation, because of events that have happened and my zero knowledge of everything from roofs to insulation and foundation pillars, I have a personal note to Harry Chickpea and I don’t care who reads it:

You have been amazing and more helpful than you could ever imagine. I would give anything to live closer to you and hope, honestly hope that some day I can meet you and properly repay you for all of the help and kindness you have shown to me throughout the process of this entire crazy dream of mine. I have no one, no grandparents, no parents, no siblings, aunts or uncles. I only have Chris and my daughters and granddaughters. When Jimmy got sick, I stared at those boards, we all did, not having a clue what to do next. Today I have a home, a warm, secure home that is beautiful and that I love more than words can express. It would have never happened without your concern, your corrections to my mistakes, you openness, your caring and you taking the time to say “STOP….you need to do……”. You are a wonderful person and may you be blessed a million times over for your kindness.

I will post on Friday after the visit with the attorney to give an update and again…thank you everyone.

[MomsTn]

Forest Breath,
Hang in there.

Just remember that in times of grief people you love sometimes do very
hurtful strange things.
I know that you care very deeply for Hazel and sometimes older people can do some very irrational things.
Her grief could be affecting her judgement.

These are the times that horrible people will come into the lives of the elderly and influence them.
I know it all may seem bleak right now, but I believe something good can come out of all of this.

Like my friend always tells me when I am stressed.
Breathe.

[Forest Breath]

Well we saw the attorney yesterday. He was appalled at our story. He was kind enough to point out that we know what we should have done but there was no sense wasting time on that. He said that unfortunately with land agreements, they usually are worthless unless they are in writing and I have no proof mine was.

The good news is he was the DA here for 24 years and everyone knows him. Most attorneys in this county have worked under him at some point in time. He is qualified and the best I could hope to get for this case. The bad news is, that experience comes at a price. It is costing me $2500 just to retain him as my attorney and will likely go higher, especially if we go to litigation on the case.

He won’t state yes we can win or no we don’t have a chance. THAT I respect and liked about him. I don’t need empty promises at this point. He spent almost 5 hours with us yesterday and did not charge a penny for it. Even if we chose not to hire him, he gave us a series of things we need to do to try to save our home. We hired him, I am paying the retainer on Monday and hope I can afford this fight I am about to face.

He is starting out the fight by requesting it all. He wants to start by making her honor her initial agreement she made with Jimmy. She to this day does not deny that they made that agreement with us. She allowed us to move onto that farm, build structures for the betterment of that farm, do work for the betterment of the farm, put time, money, ideas, dreams and plans into that farm WITH Jimmy and Hazel. She cannot ignore that and verbal or written, she agreed to it and encouraged us to do that. So he is shooting for the whole thing at first. We most likely will not get that. So we go down from there. We decrease acreage and discuss contracts. If she is still not willing to work with us, we will drop more acreage and such. This will occur until we both come to an agreement on what is fair. If she does not agree on anything, our final offer will be $2000 an acre for the five acre field we have the house on. IF she does not accept that offer, we will sue for the costs and call it a loss and leave the farm BUT….we will sue for the cost of supplies and labor of all individuals who have worked on that farm since March. An approximate total for this is about $25,000. He thinks she may just want to settle out of court when those numbers come up. As for the preacher, this is the plan…

I am to write Hazel a letter and include it in the check for the land payment tomorrow. This letter describes our original agreement and that we need to get documents secure right away, if she cannot do this to let me know and I will retain an attorney to draw those papers up for us. This has been done and he approved my letter. She will be given this letter tonight. We will wait a bit for a response for her or the “preacher”. At that point my attorney will write a kind letter to her expressing his sympathy for the loss of her husband, that I had come to him out of concern of the agreement that was made and how sad it is Jimmy died while in the process of getting those papers. I have hired him to complete these papers for us and would like to get that settled by “X” date and for her to contact him. He gave me a picket full of biz cards and said if the “preacher” approaches either me or Chris after that to inform him we refuse to discuss it without our attorney present and here is his card, feel free to call him. When he sees the name he will be set back a bit because he has no clue that we would have the sense to go to an attorney, much less hire the most expensive one in the county. He HOPES the preacher comes to him because he intends to shut the door and have a private prayer meeting with him. He said he will not work with or through him because he is an executor of the estate and has nothing to do with it until Hazel id dead. He will work with Hazel and her attorney.

After that, offers will be made and we will try to come to a settlement out of court, but the entire time prepare for court just in case. I have to go back to my journal (and thank the gods I kept a journal online with day to day activities on the farm since day one). I have to write down what we did that day, who did it, the cost of supplies and provide invoices, add in labor at a fair rate for everyone who worked that day and total the labor and supplies in the margin and print out pictures to attach to it of the work being done. I have every bit of that online from March on. I have to put it together in a book and come up with a total cost.

I think Hazel will honestly try to work things out if she listens to her attorney and not the preacher. We got home last night and the preacher had moved his camper to another area of the field (we have to go around it now when we enter the driveway) and he took the concrete blocks that Jimmy GAVE us for the root cellar, blocks that we are currently using as we build the root cellar, and he made himself a HUGE fire pit behind his camper and stole wood we had gathered at our family fire pit, where we have cookouts with the kids and roast marshmallows. He took this wood and put it in his fire pit. We had this stacked up in the field by the house right beside our fire pit and the table, hammock and lounge chairs.

BUT….as I drove by last night, I almost lost it again, but Chris reminded me we have an attorney, a good attorney and it is only concrete blocks. He does not control us and we will be OK regardless. The attorney encouraged us to continue working on our home, to prepare it for winter, to enjoy it and love it and NOT allow this situation to break us down. Even if we have to walk away down the road, we will not do it empty handed and we will at least have lived our dream and know that it was worth living and we can take the money and rebuild. We will then be starting out with more than we did this time at least.

So we move forward, Hazel gets the letter tonight. It is a very kind letter, loving letter and I meant every word in it. It is not threatening in any way, it just stated the agreement and that Jimmy just ran out of time and we need to try to get things finalized so the dreams we all discussed and worked on together can come true for all of us involved. Then we go from there. I will update as things occur. Meanwhile…I have a gallon of persimmon pulp I need to can, black walnuts to hull and a root cellar to work on….and that is what me and Chris intend to do.

Thanks for all the support on these forums, the emails and kind words and especially the ideas and advice. Hopefully some day there will be someone read this thread and they can learn from all of my mistakes and not have to endure what we are going through at this time.

[Pam& Bill]

Forest Breath,
Glad to hear from you, I am hoping things work out for you. That being said, I think it is a good thing you and Chris continue to work on your homestead.
All the best and I send you a virtual hug,
Pam

[Suzanne1945]

FB--thanks for sharing your tale in such detail. Even though your turn for help maybe 'after the fact', it sounds like you have some really good options and that things will work out for you. And, Hazel, too! The preacher sounds like he belongs in the Wild, Wild West and what a story for Gunsmoke!!