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Old 06-29-2010, 03:48 PM
Status: "Semi-retired. On and off line interchangeably" (set 4 days ago)
 
9,820 posts, read 11,167,013 times
Reputation: 5027

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Quote:
Originally Posted by polo89 View Post
West Texas has Southern roots, but the vast majority of people out there seem to closely identify with the West and not a Western South variation. Geographically West Texas is too far from the South to be considered Southern. Where will we draw the line? San Antonio historically has Southern roots, but as of today I can't envision the South in San Antonio.
Just to take this one at a time, Polo, your points are true if and only if you consider the southeast to be synoymous with "South." I know some in Ohio (honestly) who consider Kansas to be "too far west" to be part of the Midwest! LOL Would you agree with that? If not, then, in many ways, the same things apply with west Texas.

Sure, we agree it is not the classic South of moonlight and magnolias and piney woods. But its roots and basic history and culture of Southern settlment give it a character that is very much different from that of the Interior Southwest. It is, literally, the old Southwest as in Western South. Not the Southwest of New Mexico and Arizona (with the obvious exception of the trans-pecos). For sure not the West of the Rocky Mountain states.

So far as "self-identification" goes, actually, the majority of west Texans DO consider themselves to live in the South and be Southerners. Not to the extent those generally east of the 100th meridian do, but a majority. I can provide that proof for you if you want me to DM it to you (although I will have to dig it out! LOL).

You have a good point about San Antonio, I agree. But even with the demographic changes, it is still not the West. Northern Mexico, maybe, but not the West! How about Tex-Mex South?

EDIT: But as to where the line is drawn? Personally, I would include the trans-pecos horn in the true Southwest. Perhaps the area of south Texas generally along and south of San Antonio might be included, but really, that area is more like southern Florida in many ways. I was joking a bit in calling it Tex-Mex South, but not entirely. The very upper panhandle of Texas might fairly be called "Midwestern" (but only because it has much more Midwestern influence than the rest of the state). Otherwise, East Texas is where the Deep South begins and, travelling west, it evolves into the Western South (which consists of the vast and extensive parts of Texas).

Last edited by TexasReb; 06-29-2010 at 04:03 PM..

 
Old 06-29-2010, 05:56 PM
 
13,330 posts, read 13,307,374 times
Reputation: 3427
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Just to take this one at a time, Polo, your points are true if and only if you consider the southeast to be synoymous with "South." I know some in Ohio (honestly) who consider Kansas to be "too far west" to be part of the Midwest! LOL Would you agree with that? If not, then, in many ways, the same things apply with west Texas.

Sure, we agree it is not the classic South of moonlight and magnolias and piney woods. But its roots and basic history and culture of Southern settlment give it a character that is very much different from that of the Interior Southwest. It is, literally, the old Southwest as in Western South. Not the Southwest of New Mexico and Arizona (with the obvious exception of the trans-pecos). For sure not the West of the Rocky Mountain states.

So far as "self-identification" goes, actually, the majority of west Texans DO consider themselves to live in the South and be Southerners. Not to the extent those generally east of the 100th meridian do, but a majority. I can provide that proof for you if you want me to DM it to you (although I will have to dig it out! LOL).

You have a good point about San Antonio, I agree. But even with the demographic changes, it is still not the West. Northern Mexico, maybe, but not the West! How about Tex-Mex South?

EDIT: But as to where the line is drawn? Personally, I would include the trans-pecos horn in the true Southwest. Perhaps the area of south Texas generally along and south of San Antonio might be included, but really, that area is more like southern Florida in many ways. I was joking a bit in calling it Tex-Mex South, but not entirely. The very upper panhandle of Texas might fairly be called "Midwestern" (but only because it has much more Midwestern influence than the rest of the state). Otherwise, East Texas is where the Deep South begins and, travelling west, it evolves into the Western South (which consists of the vast and extensive parts of Texas).
Yeah, I'd group South Texas cities like Laredo, Brownsville, McAllen, Del Rio, with the Trans-Pecos region in the "Culturally Southwestern" category. San Antonio has it's Southern roots, but even alot of the architecture and the Mariachi bands, seem different from the South, but at the same time, I DO see it's difference from Albuquerque and Phoenix.
 
Old 06-29-2010, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
13,438 posts, read 14,738,439 times
Reputation: 5028
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlGreen View Post
wrong. illegals did participate in the 2000 census. some were counted and some weren't
Center for Immigration Studies
I read that as they simply took estimates of how many illegals. Not that they actually participated in the count. Regardless, Houston and Texas largest minority group is still Latino and that won't be changing...ever.
 
Old 06-29-2010, 06:55 PM
 
Location: America
5,098 posts, read 4,599,930 times
Reputation: 1864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade View Post
I read that as they simply took estimates of how many illegals. Not that they actually participated in the count.
Center for Immigration Studies
Quote:
Census Bureau Methodology: The Bureau found 8.7 million foreign-born individuals in the 2000 Census who appeared not to have legal status. However, because records for some legal immigrants are not available from the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), the Bureau estimates that 1.7 million of the 8.7 million already had legal status or were likely to gain it soon. If these individuals are excluded, then 7 million illegals were counted in 2000. The Census Bureau also estimates that roughly one million illegal aliens were likely missed in last year's count, meaning
that the total illegal population stood at 8 million in 2000.
Quote:
Regardless, Houston and Texas largest minority group is still Latino and that won't be changing...ever.
you can see into the future? and it's not like i ever argued that, anyway
 
Old 06-29-2010, 09:01 PM
 
871 posts, read 1,317,504 times
Reputation: 571
To answer the question "Is Texas more Western or Southern?"

the answer is that that question cant be answered, because it is both and cant be more of one or the other. that is like asking "is georgia more eastern than southern", or "is an orange more the color orange than it is a fruit". "western" is not really about culture, but location/climate/etc., "southern" generally refers to cultural traits (in the sense that it is being used here), otherwise arizona would clearly be a southern state simply from looking at a map.

you can say "Is texas more southwestern than southern" as there certainly are cultural traits of the desert southwest, and the answer to that is no because more of it is southern than southwestern.

texas is in the west, but it is culturally southern (at least most of it is). it is in the west in the sense that it is geographically great plains and the climate is different from that of which youd find in areas east of it, thus it has characterics not found in areas east of it like cattle ranching. keep in mind that none of this applies to east texas, which is southeastern.

id stress that east texas is deep south, trans-pecos texas is southwest (with NM) nad the majority of texas is what i would call either "Plains south" or "Prairie south" or if you wish "Western South" when refer to "west" as areas west of the mississippi where there is a climactic shift.

so texas may look like this:
but it talks like this:
YouTube - Whitey Shafer, 2010 Texas Heritage Songwriters' Association Honor Roll
 
Old 06-29-2010, 09:36 PM
 
13,330 posts, read 13,307,374 times
Reputation: 3427
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyJohnWilson View Post
To answer the question "Is Texas more Western or Southern?"

the answer is that that question cant be answered, because it is both and cant be more of one or the other. that is like asking "is georgia more eastern than southern", or "is an orange more the color orange than it is a fruit". "western" is not really about culture, but location/climate/etc., "southern" generally refers to cultural traits (in the sense that it is being used here), otherwise arizona would clearly be a southern state simply from looking at a map.

you can say "Is texas more southwestern than southern" as there certainly are cultural traits of the desert southwest, and the answer to that is no because more of it is southern than southwestern.

texas is in the west, but it is culturally southern (at least most of it is). it is in the west in the sense that it is geographically great plains and the climate is different from that of which youd find in areas east of it, thus it has characterics not found in areas east of it like cattle ranching. keep in mind that none of this applies to east texas, which is southeastern.

id stress that east texas is deep south, trans-pecos texas is southwest (with NM) nad the majority of texas is what i would call either "Plains south" or "Prairie south" or if you wish "Western South" when refer to "west" as areas west of the mississippi where there is a climactic shift.

so texas may look like this:
but it talks like this:
YouTube - Whitey Shafer, 2010 Texas Heritage Songwriters' Association Honor Roll
Nice post.
 
Old 06-29-2010, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Funky Town, Texas
3,596 posts, read 4,254,151 times
Reputation: 1372
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlGreen View Post
really only west of 35. mexican/tejano history is not as strong in the eastern part of the state as it is in the southern and western portions. to this day, blacks are still the largest minority group in east texas, and were once the largest minority group in houston and dallas up until the 20th century.

the point i'm trying to make is that YES illegals ARE largely responsible for the drastic demographic changes in the parts of the state that were historically black and white (i.e. the most southern parts of texas)


http://www.ttuhsc.edu/ruralhealth/im...spanicpopa.jpg
I here you man...Nothing we can do about Mexicans coming over the border illegally...Its really not fair but hell what can we do about it...I don't understand why our goverment has allowed this occur but it has happen and black and white folks are going to have to adapt...
 
Old 06-29-2010, 10:23 PM
 
13,330 posts, read 13,307,374 times
Reputation: 3427
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdogg817 View Post
I here you man...Nothing we can do about Mexicans coming over the border illegally...Its really not fair but hell what can we do about it...I don't understand why our goverment has allowed this occur but it has happen and black and white folks are going to have to adapt...
Adapt to a place that was part of Mexico to begin with?
 
Old 06-29-2010, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Upper East Side of Texas
12,424 posts, read 13,583,585 times
Reputation: 4819
Texas covers so much land area, its in its own region entirely therefore it is neither southern nor western. It is South Central geographically & is influenced culturally by both the South & Southwest depending on what part of the state you are in.
 
Old 06-29-2010, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Funky Town, Texas
3,596 posts, read 4,254,151 times
Reputation: 1372
Quote:
Originally Posted by polo89 View Post
Adapt to a place that was part of Mexico to begin with?
What the helll are you talking about? Texas is apart of the United States along with the other 50 states...Mexico wasn't even a republic at one time in history...You act if Mexico was around during 500 b.c.
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