Is Texas more Western or Southern? (Dallas, Austin: high school, bus, oil)

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by JJG

Dallas = Southern/Eastern

Fort Worth = Western

Fort Worth = western SOUTH. NOT the true West. The South (in terms of dominating influences) ends along the Texas/New Mexico border going due west and. perhaps, extends (slightly into a slice of eastern New Mexico in a few regards (as that was the extent of Southern migration). Not much -- if anything -- about Ft. Worth has more in common -- in an historical/cultural sense -- with New Mexico/Arizona cities -- or those in Colorado/Wyoming -- than it does with those in the trans-Mississippi South. At most, it is part of the so-called "Frontier Strip.

Frontier Strip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It (Ft. Worth) is in the same class as, say, a Wichita, Kansas. There was a shared frontier era...cowboys and cattle and all....but just as the former was essentially the eastern Midwest moved west, so is Ft. Worth the Old South moved west. Neither are part of a region with one another, and neither part of the true modern West (i.e.Census Bureau definition).

What in the world -- in terms of said settlement patterns, history, underlying culture and folkways, voting patterns, dialect, etc -- would make Ft. Worth more similar to Santa Fe, New Mexico, or Denver, Colorado, than it would to, say, Shreveport, Louisiana, or Nashville, Tennessee? If there is, what are they? Let me hasten to add, of course, there are major differences with the latter pair in contrast to western Texas. Yet, I submit the said differences really only differenciate the the "western South" from the "eastern South"; the two "twinish" sub-regions of the larger South. NOT the West from the South in the sense of entering a different major region of the country.

The main point is that there are MORE underlying similiarties with the latter cities than with the former, mentioned above. Many more. Put another way, there is nothing about New Mexico or Colorado cities (just to pluck those two out of the air as examples) that have anything Southern about them. Whereas, Ft. Worth has an undeniable Southern core (as do the points west to that New Mexico border (exempting the trans-pecos, of course!) in terms of traits which shaped it, and are still there, today.

[AllenSJC]

Southwestern. :P

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by AllenSJC

Southwestern. :P

Of course it is! No question.

But key thing is.... "Southwestern" as in "western South", or "southern West"? The former are, generally speaking, Texas and Oklahoma, today. The latter is New Mexico and Arizona. If there are no difference between the two pairs?

Well, then the natural question to arise is what are the similarities in an historical/cultural sense? That is, what makes the "Southwestern" traits of Texas (and Oklahoma) belong more properly classified with New Mexico and Arizona, rather than (the other West South Central states of Arkansas and Louisiana)...both of which were also considered "SW" at one time?

But oh well, enough of this tonight. I have stayed up wayyyyy to late! Time to hit the sack. See all y'all tomorow!

[Saintmarks]

Originally Posted by JJG

Dallas = Southern/Eastern

Fort Worth = Western

In the historical sense, this would ring true. However, in the opinion of this dyed in the wool southerner from Georgia who spent 3 years in Fort Worth in the 80s and the past 8 years in the Dallas burbs, would say Fort Worth feels more southern today than Dallas. Dallas has much more of a, for lack of a better term, "American Generic" aura with all of the transplants from across the country. When I go to Fort Worth, I feel I have gone back to a more true southern city.

In some ways my home city of Atlanta, the de facto capital of the south, has this "American Generic" feel, at least compared to the Atlanta I grew up with. Both Dallas and Atlanta "feel" less and less southern each decade.

[Saintmarks]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

Fort Worth = western SOUTH. NOT the true West. The South (in terms of dominating influences) ends along the Texas/New Mexico border going due west and. perhaps, extends (slightly into a slice of eastern New Mexico in a few regards (as that was the extent of Southern migration). Not much -- if anything -- about Ft. Worth has more in common -- in an historical/cultural sense -- with New Mexico/Arizona cities -- or those in Colorado/Wyoming -- than it does with those in the trans-Mississippi South. At most, it is part of the so-called "Frontier Strip.

I have wanted to make this distinction as I have found the cities of Clovis and Hobbes in far eastern New Mexico much closer in feel to Texas panhandle communities. I have a close friend whose father was on staff at the First Baptist Church of Clovis and is as southern in outlook and ideas as I am, my in-laws from Happy, Texas have relatives in this part of New Mexico as well and from my vantage point, they are as western-southern as anyone in TX. I would loop my southern influence line into this area of NM.

[Exult.Q36]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

In the historical sense, this would ring true. However, in the opinion of this dyed in the wool southerner from Georgia who spent 3 years in Fort Worth in the 80s and the past 8 years in the Dallas burbs, would say Fort Worth feels more southern today than Dallas. Dallas has much more of a, for lack of a better term, "American Generic" aura with all of the transplants from across the country. When I go to Fort Worth, I feel I have gone back to a more true southern city.

In some ways my home city of Atlanta, the de facto capital of the south, has this "American Generic" feel, at least compared to the Atlanta I grew up with. Both Dallas and Atlanta "feel" less and less southern each decade.

Inside Fort Worth inner loop there is a church on every block and you do get that southern vibe in Fort Worth. As some one that lived in both ATL and FTW at one time both had true southern hospitality. The whole western image is a myth advertise by the city and a select few. Nothing about Fort Worth culture or demograhics speaks western IMO. Fort Worth has played a significant role in southern Gospel music and the city has produce numerous amounts of gospel artist.

[JJG]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

In the historical sense, this would ring true. However, in the opinion of this dyed in the wool southerner from Georgia who spent 3 years in Fort Worth in the 80s and the past 8 years in the Dallas burbs, would say Fort Worth feels more southern today than Dallas. Dallas has much more of a, for lack of a better term, "American Generic" aura with all of the transplants from across the country. When I go to Fort Worth, I feel I have gone back to a more true southern city.

In some ways my home city of Atlanta, the de facto capital of the south, has this "American Generic" feel, at least compared to the Atlanta I grew up with. Both Dallas and Atlanta "feel" less and less southern each decade.

We're definately gonna have to agree to disagree on that one.

I grew up in Fort Worth and though it may not feel like anything in New Mexico or Colorado, it doesn't feel like anything in Louisiana or Georgia, either. Fort Worth is in Texas, which is a South Central state. But if I'd pick between the two, I'd say Fort Worth is more western than southern. I go back and forth between here and Houston and it seems to me that when you go east of 820 in Ft. Worth, the state feels more southern or southeastern than the rest of Texas.

My observations....

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

I have wanted to make this distinction as I have found the cities of Clovis and Hobbes in far eastern New Mexico much closer in feel to Texas panhandle communities. I have a close friend whose father was on staff at the First Baptist Church of Clovis and is as southern in outlook and ideas as I am, my in-laws from Happy, Texas have relatives in this part of New Mexico as well and from my vantage point, they are as western-southern as anyone in TX. I would loop my southern influence line into this area of NM.

This is very true. In fact, that area (at least at one time) was known as "Little Texas". As you say (and I think I posted a link to a map earlier) showing that along that stretch, the Southern Baptist Church is predominant. Here is another one -- based on the approximate extent of Southern American English supported by numerous dialect studies -- which also verifies it:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ed/SouthernEnglishMap.jpg/300px- (broken link)

Later addition: Here is the link mentioned earlier to the map of the major protestant church membership in the U.S. Note that strip in extreme eastern New Mexico where the Baptist Church is the largest:

http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/pics/geo...rch_bodies.gif

[Spade]

I wonder how much that adherents map changed in Texas in ten years. I am betting that the blue crept a bit further to the north.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by JJG

We're definately gonna have to agree to disagree on that one.

I grew up in Fort Worth and though it may not feel like anything in New Mexico or Colorado, it doesn't feel like anything in Louisiana or Georgia, either. Fort Worth is in Texas, which is a South Central state. But if I'd pick between the two, I'd say Fort Worth is more western than southern. I go back and forth between here and Houston and it seems to me that when you go east of 820 in Ft. Worth, the state feels more southern or southeastern than the rest of Texas.

My observations....

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, JJG, and personal experience counts for a lot. And of course, there is no "right or wrong" answer, anyway.

But, with all due respect (your posts are always intelligent and well-written and never personal!), what I wonder about is why you (or anybody else for that matter) would classify Ft. Worth (and the rest of western Texas except for the trans-pecos) with the West of Colorado and New Mexico, than with the South east of the Sabine River?

I mean, what historical and cultural characteristics would make that part of Texas more Western than Southern, in your opinion? As in the sense of sharing more of a common historical and cultural heritage and outlook with the latter over the former?

Even in terms of physical geography -- which I will be the first to concede is NOT Southern in the classic forested and moonlight and magnolias image -- western Texas more resembles the plains states (i.e. frontier strip:
Frontier Strip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) than the interior SW or Mountain West.

Just to note here, the famed Ft. Worth slogan "Where the West Begins" is often touted out. BUT...the thing to remember it that it was NEVER intended to mean the South stops here. LOL This would seem to be verified in the Dallas counter-slogan of "Where the East Ends." This is an important distinction.

I think the mistake -- of course IMHO -- that many people make is to assume by default that the West and South are necessarily mutually exclusive of one another. In an example I am always prone to use, Kansas too is a western state...full of just as many cowboys and cattle and cowtown and gunfighter icons as western Texas. BUT...does anybody exclude it from the Midwest? Of course not. Why then, does western Texas seem to be different in that regard as to exclusion from the South (in the opinion of some)?

That frontier strip mentioned earlier was those states -- western parts of them -- which originally formed the said major post-"Civil War" migration. Yes, they were the "West"...and they shared certain frontier characteristics...but those north of Oklahoma were a product of Midwestern settlers, while Texas (and later, Oklahoma) were products of the American South.

And those west of the plains frontier strip didn't even count as most of them did not even become states until long after western Texas basic character was already shaped. Those states (interior SW and Mountain) -- what is now the Census Bureau West -- exerted no influence at all on Texas.

On the other hand, in terms of history, settlement, religion, accents, culture and folksways and even self-identification, it takes very little -- if one gets beyond the landscape -- to easily discern the tremendous and dominating influences of the eastern ante-bellum South on the western frontier South, starting around Ft. Worth.

Of course you are correct in that Ft. Worth is not an Old South town (even thought it was settled before the War) and no "twin" can be found in the same of romantic hoopskirts and plantation and cavalier lore...but point is, it WAS those southeasterner who, looking to get a new start, were the same who settled the town and the rest of western Texas. And they didn't drop their attitudes and culture just because they crossed I-35 E! LOL It just became the Old South marrying up with the Frontier West.