Is Texas more Western or Southern? (Houston, Dallas: restaurant, light-rail, offices)

[polo89]

Originally Posted by solytaire

Although, I personally dont consider El Paso to be southern, there are a few people who consider the tendrils of the south to extend all the way to NM. But I know what you're saying: there does have to be a cutoff point..But my point is that the cut off seems to be kind of based on superficial criteria.. Topographically the cut off could easilly end at Houston. But again, climatically and even culturally the cut off could extend well through austin or san antonio.

That is the cut-off point. Somewhat.....

[polo89]

Originally Posted by JimmyJohnWilson

i believe i showed you those two maps. the west starts at about athens texas. but like said earlier, much of texas is the south in the west.

as far as what west is, west is geographic. "west" is a drier climate, praire lands, etc. "south" is a cultural region. if it was a geographic region then arizona would be deep south.

so much of texas is the south in the west. much of texas is geographically western, climatically western and geologically western, while at the same time having a culture clearly tied to that of the southerners of whom settled it. i think what you may be struggling with is texas is a place where the people are culturally southern, while the landscape looks nothing like what one imagines the south to look like.

california is the cultural west in the geographic west. although the west is not as united as a cultural region as the south.

But parts of Texas are even culturally not Southern.

[polo89]

Originally Posted by AlGreen

you act like we're saying that ALL of texas is the deep south. no one here is saying that. but most of the state is southern in culture. and almost everyone here has posted sources to back this up except YOU

What sources? A few country music songs, and a dish of food?

[polo89]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

I see what you are saying, Polo, and perhaps you might be missing the point me and some others are trying to impart (Solytaire, JJW, Al Green, etc). I am not saying you must agree with it, but just that perhaps we are talking past each other. Let me give it a shot this way...

There are two "wests", just as there are two "easts". One is mostly geographical the other is primarily historical and cultural and denotes a coherent region in terms of history, general culture, and self-idenfication.

The St. Louis Arch you brought up is a good example of the former aspect. It is the Gate Way to the West. The Texas city of Ft. Worth used a similar designation ("Where the West Begins"'), but in neither case was it intended to mean one was leaving a larger established region. Both referred to the fact that, especially after the War Between the States ended, and people were moving west to get a new start, that one was leaving the "east" The west in this sense really reflected that old adage of "go west, young man, and grow up with the country" (Horace Greely).

Large parts of Texas are certainly western in that way; and there definitely remains the frontier western qualities of that era of migration and new opportunities. So was/is Kansas. But those who did it were from eastern states and, respectively, those who came west to Texas were from the southeast, and those from Kansas were from the eastern Midwest. To back up the point just a bit, while many of these new Texans spoke of "moving west" in diaries and memoirs, I have yet to find one which said anything along the lines of "we are leaving the South to move to Texas." LOL

But anyway, at that time (the Wild West era) most of those states to the west of the plains states were still territories. The dominant influence of Southern migration pretty much ended in Texas. The dominant influence of eastern midwestern migration pretty much ended in the central and northern plains. Thus the basic history and culture was very much established long before the territories of the interior SW and Rocky mountains became states.

On the other hand, the latter two (SW and RM) became pretty much a mix of eastern settlement and they became the "West" of U.S. Census Bureau definition today. And Texas has little in common with them at a root level.

By the same flip side of the coin, the "east" was just that part of the country already long settled during the ante-bellum era. Alabama and Massachusetts both were and are "eastern" states. But there is a different "East"...which is usually defined as the Northeast and does not include Alabama.

These analogies may not be precise, but I hope the general point is made. Texas is "western" but not the West of Colorado or Arizona. Alabama is "eastern" but not the "East" of New York or New Hamsphire. Different definitions and creatures in both paired examples. Thus, as several have noted, Texas can easily be both Southern and western in a way not mutually exclusive of one another. Just as Alabama can be eastern and Southern in the same vein. On the other hand, Colorado can only be western and West and Massachusetts can only be "eastern" and "East."

I'm not grouping Texas with CO. I'm just saying, there are cultural traits in Texas that are different than that of the Rest of the South. And YES, I know you, AlGreen, WestbankNOLA, JJW, Ladarron, Jluke, or WHOEVER, are gonna say the South isn't monolithic and EVERY Southern state has different cultural traits, but having traveled through the WHOLE Southern US,and seeing the culture of each state, I must say that all of them have an underlying connected Southern culture, that Much of Texas doesn't share with them. Maybe only Houston and East Texas.

[JimmyJohnWilson]

Originally Posted by polo89

But parts of Texas are even culturally not Southern.

then those parts arent southern.

Originally Posted by polo89

I'm not grouping Texas with CO. I'm just saying, there are cultural traits in Texas that are different than that of the Rest of the South. And YES, I know you, AlGreen, WestbankNOLA, JJW, Ladarron, Jluke, or WHOEVER, are gonna say the South isn't monolithic and EVERY Southern state has different cultural traits, but having traveled through the WHOLE Southern US,and seeing the culture of each state, I must say that all of them have an underlying connected Southern culture, that Much of Texas doesn't share with them. Maybe only Houston and East Texas.

actually i believe the vast majority of the south does share cultural traits and as far as i understand they are present in much of the state of texas, even around abilene. if you can prove to me that that part of texas isnt southern cultural then i will immediately say its not the south, but it seems to me in the way of dialect, religion, cuisine, musical history, customs, and all of the like much of texas west of east texas fits the bill culturally

Originally Posted by polo89

What sources? A few country music songs, and a dish of food?

first off, the sources were the prevalence of the baptist church, 3 unique southern dishes (chess pie, pimento cheese, and spoonbread), country music AND blues music and dialect. what other indicators of culture can you think of? which ones can you think of that point otherwise?

[WestbankNOLA]

Originally Posted by polo89

I'm not grouping Texas with CO. I'm just saying, there are cultural traits in Texas that are different than that of the Rest of the South. And YES, I know you, AlGreen, WestbankNOLA, JJW, Ladarron, Jluke, or WHOEVER, are gonna say the South isn't monolithic and EVERY Southern state has different cultural traits, but having traveled through the WHOLE Southern US,and seeing the culture of each state, I must say that all of them have an underlying connected Southern culture, that Much of Texas doesn't share with them. Maybe only Houston and East Texas.

It basically comes down to YOUR perception of what the south is. There is no way that you've been all over tbe south and can honestly say that it is all the sam e. Honestly, I can't even tell what your argument is anymore.

[BillyH]

Black eyed peas are served in restaurants across the city in SA for good luck on New Years Day a southern tradition but tamales are also at Christmas time a blend of cultures. Whites and Hispanics alike can be heard saying y'all.

[polo89]

Originally Posted by BillyH

As a long time resident of SA I have never considered we lived in the west as in New Mexico or Arizona. I will not argue were southerners now just Texans. I do resent the label "north Mexico" as pure crap. I read in another thread the Hispanic community here is only 16% foreign born, which doesn't surprise me. They have been living here generation after generation and are Americans/Texans period with most having no ties to Mexico. The Germans, southerners and Hispanics all helped settled SA and the surrounding Hill Country it's a blend of many cultures as much of Texas is.

Then where are you geographically? You need to look up the definition of the Western US. As you can see they classify SA as being part of the American Southwest, I don't 100% agree with that classification, but it is what it is: San Antonio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia And you notice anytime they talk about the Texas Medical Center(both Houston and San Antonio) they say they are the best Medical centers in the Southwest, and that DART Rail(in Dallas) is the 1st light-rail system in the Southwest: Dallas Area Rapid Transit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[polo89]

Originally Posted by JimmyJohnWilson

then those parts arent southern.

actually i believe the vast majority of the south does share cultural traits and as far as i understand they are present in much of the state of texas, even around abilene. if you can prove to me that that part of texas isnt southern cultural then i will immediately say its not the south, but it seems to me in the way of dialect, religion, cuisine, musical history, customs, and all of the like much of texas west of east texas fits the bill culturally

first off, the sources were the prevalence of the baptist church, 3 unique southern dishes (chess pie, pimento cheese, and spoonbread), country music AND blues music and dialect. what other indicators of culture can you think of? which ones can you think of that point otherwise?

Saddle-back church is one of the LARGEST Southern Baptist churches in the US. And it's located in Orange County California. You can find Southern cuisine restaurants anywhere. Most of the Southern culture you see out there is imported from the East, and it doesn't seem like it's the original culture of the area, much like Bakersfield CA. You can also find imported Southern culture in places like CO.

[polo89]

Originally Posted by WestbankNOLA

It basically comes down to YOUR perception of what the south is. There is no way that you've been all over tbe south and can honestly say that it is all the sam e. Honestly, I can't even tell what your argument is anymore.

What are we arguing about? I say East Texas is Southern, Austin, and SA are some weird Southern AND Southwestern hybrid, and anything WEST of Austin and SA is part of the Southwest.