Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Was it to be expected that this thread would devolve into the recurrent and irresolvable debate about whether or not Texas is part of the South?
That is always a very heated discussion in which too many people fail to see the shades of grey and the geographical and cultural complexities of the matter. I wonder if people who hang out on this forum would be very surprised that this same debate repeatedly crops up on the Maryland forum and even spawned a long thread on the Delaware forum. The issue comes back again and again because people mean different things by the terms used, emphasise different aspects of the issue, and have emotional baggage attached to the question and its answer. Are Texas/Maryland/Delaware Southern states? The answers tend too often to resemble the musings of blind men describing the isolated bits of the elephant that they each happen to be touching.
Exactly. Anyone who insists that Texas is the South is ignoring all those other parts of the elephant because of the part they're touching (or, more likely, prefer). My preference is to acknowledge ALL the parts of the elephant and, in fact, the elephant as elephant, not pretend the elephant is just its trunk, or leg, or tail, or ear.
What's interesting is that your post below appears to be in complete contradiction to your post above (or you have a personal fondness and emotional attachment to the elephant's ear, perhaps ).
Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorjef
I'd love to see a debate between just you and TexasReb on the proposition: Texas is a culturally Southern state.
You can see that quite easily on several threads on here. We've agreed to disagree, because it reached the point that whenever I saw a thread that was clearly about the topic, my heart sunk because I knew that TexasReb would pop up sooner or later and it would not be a discussion or even a debate, it would be a dumping of writings by people who share his point of view. And said so.
And, no, it's not a culturally Southern state, its a blend. A complete elephant.
And, to answer the thread question, that's one thing I like about Texas. The variety that it contains that makes it not just one thing or the other, but a wonderful blend of many things. Never boring!
AlGreen, I don't "claim" to be from East Texas, I am. Preacher's kid, which means a little bit of all over - family farm outside of Henderson (purchased by my great-grandparents in 1879 when my grandfather was 3 months old), family fought at San Jacinto - we go way back in East Texas, lived near Palestine, went to elementary school in Elkhart and Athens, family in Tyler, etc. And I still say that Texas, as a whole, is not the South - it's made up of many influences, most of which are NOT Southern in nature.
Now, when I was a little girl, I really, really, really WANTED it to be the South (how romantic!), but I grew up and took a look at reality and realized how what I wanted not only wasn't reality but was a slap in the face to all the other cultural influences on the State and gave it up. Plus, it required me to miss out on a whole lot of what the state has to offer - sort of like people from elsewhere who insist that Texas is one thing and one thing only (except for Austin, which is somehow not in Texas, one has to imagine they think?).
Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I'm sorry, yours just doesn't line up with what I've known from other native East Texans and what I have experienced in the region myself.
Exactly. Anyone who insists that Texas is the South is ignoring all those other parts of the elephant because of the part they're touching (or, more likely, prefer). My preference is to acknowledge ALL the parts of the elephant and, in fact, the elephant as elephant, not pretend the elephant is just its trunk, or leg, or tail, or ear.
What's interesting is that your post below appears to be in complete contradiction to your post above (or you have a personal fondness and emotional attachment to the elephant's ear, perhaps ).
You can see that quite easily on several threads on here. We've agreed to disagree, because it reached the point that whenever I saw a thread that was clearly about the topic, my heart sunk because I knew that TexasReb would pop up sooner or later and it would not be a discussion or even a debate, it would be a dumping of writings by people who share his point of view. And said so.
And, no, it's not a culturally Southern state, its a blend. A complete elephant.
And, to answer the thread question, that's one thing I like about Texas. The variety that it contains that makes it not just one thing or the other, but a wonderful blend of many things. Never boring!
When you "blend" something, all of the contents will be the same. That does not describe Texas. The best way to describe the culture in our state is that it gets less "southern" the further west you go. More like a tapering effect.
Location: Austin, TX/Chicago, IL/Houston, TX/Washington, DC
10,138 posts, read 16,049,308 times
Reputation: 4047
All I'm saying is if people want to view Houston & Dallas as Southern, then freakin take responsibility and keep it consistent and keep Miami & Washington DC in the same boat too. Why do they ALWAYS get a free pass from insults like "fat southerner waddling to the vote box to vote with a bible in one hand and a conservative pin in the other?". It's absolutely NOT fair. Dallas & Houston have worked hard being cosmopolitan cities.
People in these cities celebrate their heritage from around the world, we used to be apart of Mexico first and NOT the South, we have have 47% Hispanic population in these metros. And all of a sudden some dude hanging around at some friend chicken joint with dreadlocks speaks for an entire city as being the South? Give me a break.
You want to convince me that Houston & Dallas are Southern. Go up to EVERY single Hispanic people (who are becoming the majority here) and ask them how they feel about living in the "South" and see if you get a blank stare. I drove through Houston last night, I feel peace with my city, and it feels great seeing street signs in Chinese & Vietnamese. To see English & Spanish back to back in some areas and seeing how so many streets are Spanish names. It gave me a new perspective on "Cosmopolitan" and it sure doesn't revolve around the South.
This is my opinion, take it or leave it but answer this one question. Why do Miami & Washington DC get a free pass when Houston & Dallas don't? Miami was infinitely Southern 30 years ago before it let immigration come and do works on its city, and now because of Miami all of a sudden the ENTIRE state of Florida gets a "free pass" for not being Southern. Washington DC was a city founded for the SOLE PURPOSE of being in the South.
All I'm saying is, if we're going down this road, so are Miami & Washington DC (and Baltimore), they're going down with us on this. It's not fair how they get a free pass. Houston & Dallas have worked infinitely harder than freakin Miami at becoming cosmopolitan, Miami ignores an entire race of people (Asians) and it gets a free pass to "not" be Southern. Give me an effin break people. I've driven through Miami before, rural areas of Miami-Dade have Southern sounding overall wearing, banjo playing people there and I haven't seen that yet in Harris County and they don't get to be Southern?
My main (and probably only problem) with the South is that people view our cities in a double standard. They treat Houston & Dallas like some third class mediocre place that's impoverished, crime filled, backwards, and retarded but give Washington DC & Miami the free pass.
It's not even fair. Sorry for the rant, but its just not cool at all, effing Miami, Baltimore, & Washington DC, I freakin envy those cities when I'm doing school here or going home to see my parents. Lucky.
Since the growth of the Hispanic population in the south outpaced the combined black and white population in the south, I wonder what you all are gonna say in a few years when many southern cities become majority hispanic? Are you guys gonna start calling Tennessee South Western?
all i'm saying is if people want to view houston & dallas as southern, then freakin take responsibility and keep it consistent and keep miami & washington dc in the same boat too. Why do they always get a free pass from insults like "fat southerner waddling to the vote box to vote with a bible in one hand and a conservative pin in the other?". It's absolutely not fair. Dallas & houston have worked hard being cosmopolitan cities.
People in these cities celebrate their heritage from around the world, we used to be apart of mexico first and not the south, we have have 47% hispanic population in these metros. and all of a sudden some dude hanging around at some friend chicken joint with dreadlocks speaks for an entire city as being the south? Give me a break.
You want to convince me that houston & dallas are southern. Go up to every single hispanic people (who are becoming the majority here) and ask them how they feel about living in the "south" and see if you get a blank stare. I drove through houston last night, i feel peace with my city, and it feels great seeing street signs in chinese & vietnamese. To see english & spanish back to back in some areas and seeing how so many streets are spanish names. It gave me a new perspective on "cosmopolitan" and it sure doesn't revolve around the south.
This is my opinion, take it or leave it but answer this one question. Why do miami & washington dc get a free pass when houston & dallas don't? Miami was infinitely southern 30 years ago before it let immigration come and do works on its city, and now because of miami all of a sudden the entire state of florida gets a "free pass" for not being southern. Washington dc was a city founded for the sole purpose of being in the south.
All i'm saying is, if we're going down this road, so are miami & washington dc (and baltimore), they're going down with us on this. It's not fair how they get a free pass. Houston & dallas have worked infinitely harder than freakin miami at becoming cosmopolitan, miami ignores an entire race of people (asians) and it gets a free pass to "not" be southern. Give me an effin break people. I've driven through miami before, rural areas of miami-dade have southern sounding overall wearing, banjo playing people there and i haven't seen that yet in harris county and they don't get to be southern?
My main (and probably only problem) with the south is that people view our cities in a double standard. They treat houston & dallas like some third class mediocre place that's impoverished, crime filled, backwards, and retarded but give washington dc & miami the free pass.
It's not even fair. Sorry for the rant, but its just not cool at all, effing miami, baltimore, & washington dc, i freakin envy those cities when i'm doing school here or going home to see my parents. Lucky.
Location: Austin, TX/Chicago, IL/Houston, TX/Washington, DC
10,138 posts, read 16,049,308 times
Reputation: 4047
Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove
Since the growth of the Hispanic population in the south outpaced the combined black and white population in the south, I wonder what you all are gonna say in a few years when many southern cities become majority hispanic? Are you guys gonna start calling Tennessee South Western?
No Tennessee was never apart of Mexico. Texas, like California, New Mexico, & Arizona is one of the only four states in the country that borders Mexico. Texas having the longest border with Mexico out of the 4.
Tennessee can become Hispanic all it wants, it wont ever catch up to Houston or Dallas or San Antonio in that regard. It wont ever have the right to say it was apart of Mexico. It wont have continuous streets in their cities named after Spanish names. It wont have a bad rep for "illegal immigrants". It wont ever suffer or experience our pains for being a border state, it wont EVER see mass scale human homicides because of drug wars. These are things we have in common with our Border Brotherens of Arizona, New Mexico, & California (and not the rest of the South) with the exception being Florida (For their odd location near Cuba).
Texas like Florida was never like Alabama or Tennessee or any other Southern state. We're on the Western Edge of the Census defined region called "The South" and just like MD, DE, VA, WV, & DC and also FL we have the opportunity to say "we're not Southern" because we're not in the heart of it, we differ geographically, culturally, & psychologically.
I don't know about all of you, but I'm going to take our differences from the rest of the South and I'm always going to cherish them and be grateful for our location and use it to say we're not Southern.
To each their own. There will always be people who say Texas is apart of the South, there's evidence for it (but there is for Washington DC too) and there will always be people who will say Texas isn't apart of the South (like me) and there's evidence for that too, and I'm going to keep what I have in regards to evidence and I'm going to play it for my opinion (all day everyday). And yes, like jluke said, some people are ashamed of claiming Southern, and I am one of those people.
I think its a two way street though, I'll respect AlGreen & TexasReb (and your) opinions, it holds as much validity as mine, I respect that and respect you all.
Well, Texas Horse Lady, I agree the 2 posts would seem contradictory, but just because an issue isn't subject to a definitive resolution doesn't mean that it isn't an interesting subject for debate between two worthy proponents of different sides of the issue. Thing is, I wouldn't want anyone else involved in the debate and there's no practical way for that to occur on C-D Forums AFAIK. I actually think TexasReb is a bit more nuanced than you seem to suggest, but at the same time his arguments have been a catalyst for me to think more critically about my own regional identifications and internalized cultural norms. I'm much more of the Texas-as-part-of-the-Southwest school of thought, though I realise that is partly influenced by my own preferences (and I see East Texas as definitely Southern). However, I'm also aware that I experience Texas manners - using that term very broadly - as culturally congruent at a personal level, while characteristically Northern manners for me tend to be jarring, grating and/or ego-alien. And here's the rub: the Texan folkways/manners/self-presentation are largely and essentially Southern; in contrast to the whole collection of attitudes and self-presentation making up the Northern pattern. Thus, I have to conclude that TexasReb is essentially correct about the co-identity of Texas and Southern cultural patterns to a great extent, even though I think he tends to somewhat over-state his case.
One more thought: I suspect many of us here are somewhat different people in RL than on the internet. Being a generally polite person, I shy away from contentious political debate in RL. I try to find common ground and to confine discussion to more intellectualised and less emotionally frought issues and/or to keep discussion of controversial issues to aspects on which agreement might be found and things examined more dispassionately.
What's funny is that you can go into the Atlanta forum and see them arguing about whether or not their city is southern. If residents of the town that's supposedly at the epicenter of the south can't even agree on this issue, that oughtta tell you something.. people will always have their own reasons for believing a place isn't southern, which is why it's best to just go by definition, and Texas--by definition-is the South.. there are also some definitions that list the state as southwestern, but these seem to be more geographic than anything.
Someone brought race into it, so let's put it like this: the extreme majority of black Texans will tell you they are southerners, and will laugh at you for saying anything else. But if white, Hispanic, and Asian Texans don't want to be southern, we won't force y'all . But I know TexReb is riding with us lol.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
).
. But I know TexReb is riding with us lol.
