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Both Cities have excellent transit from the downtown. From Downtown Houston you can take metro to almost anywhere in the city or a park and ride to a number of the burbs.
Those cities might not have extensive rail systems but public transit is not limited to rail. The bus system works quite well for Houston, and that is saying something based on how physically large the city is
Trying to sell an HSR by touting bus connectivity will not work in my opinion. Many HSR Dallas-Houston travelers would be business travelers with a high value of time. They want to be able to get from point A in Houston to point B in Dallas as quickly and efficiently as possible. Houston's bus system does not serve that niche of traveler.
On the Dallas end, they have a much better system but the decentralization of businesses on the Dallas end will only make continuing on mass transit an option for some, not most.
I can see tourists and leisure travelers perhaps using mass transit, but neither city has a high proportion of those as opposed to business travelers. Any HSR must be business traveler-friendly to succeed.
Trying to sell an HSR by touting bus connectivity will not work in my opinion. Many HSR Dallas-Houston travelers would be business travelers with a high value of time. They want to be able to get from point A in Houston to point B in Dallas as quickly and efficiently as possible. Houston's bus system does not serve that niche of traveler.
On the Dallas end, they have a much better system but the decentralization of businesses on the Dallas end will only make continuing on mass transit an option for some, not most.
I can see tourists and leisure travelers perhaps using mass transit, but neither city has a high proportion of those as opposed to business travelers. Any HSR must be business traveler-friendly to succeed.
Business travelers take Taxis. anyway if as you say only tourists and leisure travelers take mass transit, then why bring up business travelers at all if they don't take mass transit?
anyway touting bus systems was the point you made earlier, you said Dallas and Houston you get to downtown and then can't get anywhere from there, and you further singled out Houston when in actuality Houston has one of the best bus systems in the country and downtown is the heart of it all.
Business travelers take Taxis. anyway if as you say only tourists and leisure travelers take mass transit, then why bring up business travelers at all if they don't take mass transit?
anyway touting bus systems was the point you made earlier, you said Dallas and Houston you get to downtown and then can't get anywhere from there, and you further singled out Houston when in actuality Houston has one of the best bus systems in the country and downtown is the heart of it all.
I'm not saying business travelers can't get anywhere from downtown, I'm saying that they can't compete on a time basis using bus from a downtown based HSR. They will take taxis, but not if their meeting is on the Energy Corridor, or in Katy or at Greenspoint.
I'm from Houston. I rode Metro a lot growing up. It is efficient in some cases and a pain in others. The point I'm trying to make is that HSR with a bus connection is vastly inferior to simply driving for a business passenger at this point. HSR needs a robust public transportation system to avoid the "last mile" problem. Unless there is a robust public transportation system, or their end destination is near the HSR station, business passengers won't use it.
That's why I originally said two decades from now, when driving is undoubtedly a pain and flying is extremely expensive is when I see this system getting off of the ground.
I'm not saying business travelers can't get anywhere from downtown, I'm saying that they can't compete on a time basis using bus from a downtown based HSR. They will take taxis, but not if their meeting is on the Energy Corridor, or in Katy or at Greenspoint.
I'm from Houston. I rode Metro a lot growing up. It is efficient in some cases and a pain in others. The point I'm trying to make is that HSR with a bus connection is vastly inferior to simply driving for a business passenger at this point. HSR needs a robust public transportation system to avoid the "last mile" problem. Unless there is a robust public transportation system, or their end destination is near the HSR station, business passengers won't use it.
That's why I originally said two decades from now, when driving is undoubtedly a pain and flying is extremely expensive is when I see this system getting off of the ground.
dude there are express buses more comfortable than the usual city to city buses. The 102 for example connects downtown and IAH via 45. It hops on to 45 from Travis and stops in Greenpoints 20 minutes later. There are the same to Kingwood, Sugarland, Clearlake, etc. They all make use of Houston's extensive highway system and thus have few stops.
If you don't know much about Dallas and Houston, ask first instead of just foolishly trashing those city's systems. You may have grown up here but clearly you know very little about the system. I don't know how long ago , was your growing up in Houston, but Houston has had this awesome park and ride service for awhile now.
here is the park and ride map that business people have been taking for awhile now:
and it is working for us better than a rail could work right now.
dude there are express buses more comfortable than the usual city to city buses. The 102 for example connects downtown and IAH via 45. It hops on to 45 from Travis and stops in Greenpoints 20 minutes later. There are the same to Kingwood, Sugarland, Clearlake, etc. They all make use of Houston's extensive highway system and thus have few stops.
If you don't know much about Dallas and Houston, ask first instead of just foolishly trashing those city's systems. You may have grown up here but clearly you know very little about the system. I don't know how long ago , was your growing up in Houston, but Houston has had this awesome park and ride service for awhile now.
here is the park and ride map that business people have been taking for awhile now:
and it is working for us better than a rail could work right now.
Bro I'm about to graduate in 11 days with a master's in transportation planning and then moving onto an MPO (unfortunately not in Houston). I grew up in Houston in the 90's and 2000's and I grew up IN HOUSTON (UH area and Medical Center area) I don't think I have too many questions about the system and I understand it (and that of Dallas/Ft. Worth) just fine.
You're completely missing the point and misinterpreting the point you're missing as me not knowing what I'm talking about it. My point is this. HSR is meant to supplant auto and air service on routes of generally between 100 and 350-400 miles. If you can hop on a train from Dallas to Houston and then hop on an express bus to, say, Greenspoint and do it door to door in 3 to 4 hours, then wouldn't you just save yourself some money and possibly time and drive? And this is also assuming that the destination is on an express bus route.
With a more robust light rail system, the difference is all in perception. Commuters will use express bus service, but it will turn off businessmen to an extent. It is also less reliable in terms of time. Buses are also mechanically less reliable.
I'll say this again. The people who are going to sustain any Texas HSR are going to be business travelers. Until the level of pain is high enough on the roadways, those travelers are going to drive or fly. Flying would lose a share of the market in any case if there was an HSR, but it will not supplant it completely on a specific route (which is the goal) until the intracity connections are strengthened. Remember that even express buses have to GET to the dedicated lanes they use. Only when congestion has gotten to a critical point when it is no longer feasible to drive from origins in Houston to destinations in Dallas will an HSR gain footing here. I guess that point to be a couple of decades away.
No one's trashing anything but business travelers have specific needs and since we don't have a major tourist market it would behoove us to cater to those who will sustain the system. I think HSR in Texas is a great idea, just not quite yet. We just had a meeting about this not too long ago here in Austin concerning a possible San Antonio-Dallas leg of a statewide HSR system, and some members of the business community expressed a bit of pessimism about just where they would go and how they would get there when being dumped out of a train in pretty much anywhere but DFW.
That's why there's some support for a solution that favors connecting the rail to airports. I find that to be problematic as well, but I understand why there's some sentiment for that type of approach.
Last edited by majicdonjuan; 05-09-2011 at 10:22 PM..
Let's put this in perspective. Last year, the Astros paid Roy Oswalt $15 million, and also paid Lance Berkman $15 million. Just for one year. They saved $30 million per year by trading them both away. The Astros saved $15 million in April, May and June of this year. Which is probably about how much they make every year on beer sales at Minute Maid Park.
Just how far will $15 million go toward high speed rail?
Bro I'm about to graduate in 11 days with a master's in transportation planning and then moving onto an MPO (unfortunately not in Houston). I grew up in Houston in the 90's and 2000's and I grew up IN HOUSTON (UH area and Medical Center area) I don't think I have too many questions about the system and I understand it (and that of Dallas/Ft. Worth) just fine.
You're completely missing the point and misinterpreting the point you're missing as me not knowing what I'm talking about it. My point is this. HSR is meant to supplant auto and air service on routes of generally between 100 and 350-400 miles. If you can hop on a train from Dallas to Houston and then hop on an express bus to, say, Greenspoint and do it door to door in 3 to 4 hours, then wouldn't you just save yourself some money and possibly time and drive?
I'll say this again. The people who are going to sustain any Texas HSR are going to be business travelers. Until the level of pain is high enough on the roadways, those travelers are going to drive or fly. Flying would lose a share of the market in any case if there was an HSR, but it will not supplant it completely on a specific route (which is the goal) until the intracity connections are strengthened. Remember that even express buses have to GET to the dedicated lanes they use. Only when congestion has gotten to a critical point when it is no longer feasible to drive from origins in Houston to destinations in Dallas will an HSR gain footing here. I guess that point to be a couple of decades away.
No one's trashing anything but business travelers have specific needs and since we don't have a major tourist market it would behoove us to cater to those who will sustain the system. I think HSR in Texas is a great idea, just not quite yet.
I was responding directly to this:
Quote:
Theoretically it would be better to connect the central cities, but given the sporadic state of public transit in both cities (particularly Houston) where would one go upon stepping off of the train?
patently untrue.
as for your comments in red you are probably thinking of light rail speed. The proposed rail travels at speeds over 150mph, which means it would take less than two hours to get from Houston to Dallas, So year given the option it is a no brainer that it would be quicker to take the rail than to drive. It may be even quicker than flying because of security flying takes two longer than the actual flight time.
As for your comments in blue you are off based there two. I know people who drive down from Dallas to Galveston almost every weekend. I know people who go between the two cities to party. You are waaay off to think that is mainly business travellers going between the two.
Let's put this in perspective. Last year, the Astros paid Roy Oswalt $15 million, and also paid Lance Berkman $15 million. Just for one year. They saved $30 million per year by trading them both away. The Astros saved $15 million in April, May and June of this year. Which is probably about how much they make every year on the concession franchise for beer at Minute Maid Park.
Just how far will $15 million go toward high speed rail?
Planning and environmental assessment only. Nothing more. Nothing even approaching construction lol.
Let's put this in perspective. Last year, the Astros paid Roy Oswalt $15 million, and also paid Lance Berkman $15 million. Just for one year. They saved $30 million per year by trading them both away. The Astros saved $15 million in April, May and June of this year. Which is probably about how much they make every year on the concession franchise for beer at Minute Maid Park.
Just how far will $15 million go toward high speed rail?
it is just for exploration and accessments, not for actual rail building.
An environmental impact study, feasibility studies, cost studies, ridership projections, possible stops etc must be done before any other planning or monetary requests can be done
as for your comments in red you are probably thinking of light rail speed. The proposed rail travels at speeds over 150mph, which means it would take less than two hours to get from Houston to Dallas, So year given the option it is a no brainer that it would be quicker to take the rail than to drive. It may be even quicker than flying because of security flying takes two longer than the actual flight time.
As for your comments in blue you are off based there two. I know people who drive down from Dallas to Galveston almost every weekend. I know people who go between the two cities to party. You are waaay off to think that is mainly business travellers going between the two.
When you add in access time of the station of say 20 minutes on each end, allowing 15 minutes before your departure and 15 minutes after for walk/disembark/find your next ride time and assuming 1 hour 50 minutes travel time (@ 130 mph because there WILL be a stop or two along the way) you're looking at 3 hours. I'd call that average but say the range of total travel time would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 2:45-3:30. I can do downtown Dallas to downtown Houston in about 3:30. Air total actually about the same, i'd say :50 for the flight, :30 for access on each end, :40 for security and :20 for bag claim. That's 2:50 total.
Now let's say congestion got to a point where it takes 4:15 to drive the two cities. Then HSR becomes much more competitive because it takes a big bite of the automobile market which is MUCH bigger than the air market. Only 2.9 million people flew between Houston and Dallas in 2009 and that includes not only O&D traffic but connecting traffic meaning that only a portion of that 2.9 million had Houston or Dallas as a final destination. My guess would be 50-60%. Those travelers would primarily switch to HSR, but the automobile drivers (the leisure travelers and the more cost-conscious business travelers) would not due to pricing differences.
I drive from Austin to Houston 2 or 3 times a month. Does that mean I would take a HSR if it were available as a leisure traveler (grad student?)? Only if it were competitive in price (first criteria for most leisure travelers) and time (second criteria) and I could easily get to my final destination (third criteria). However for a business traveler, time is the main consideration. If I can drive to Austin in 2:30 and the HSR takes 2 hours but costs me $90 for a round trip ticket compared to $45 to fill my tank up, I'm going to take my car.
Increased roadway congestion is the only thing that can push HSR to Texas. Given the fact that transportation in this state (and pretty much everywhere) is severely underfunded, I could definitely see us having the necessary congestion levels in about 20 years to consider it.
Look at California. In my opinion they're a great fit for HSR, but there's no funding for it. We will be at those levels of congestion in 20 years.
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and it is working for us better than a rail could work right now.
