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Old 08-20-2011, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Greenville, Delaware
4,644 posts, read 6,434,139 times
Reputation: 2365

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The African-American population in West Texas is relatively tiny and geographically isolated from the great Southern "Black Belt". Contrast with the large and prominent A-A component of places like Beaumont or smaller East TX communities like Jacksonville.
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Old 08-20-2011, 12:01 PM
Status: " On and off line interchangeably" (set 5 days ago)
 
9,823 posts, read 11,308,206 times
Reputation: 5054
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
I knew better as I was pushing "post" than to even say anything about the fallacy that Texas is primarily a Southern state (no matter how much "data dumping" is done to try to "prove" that it is). I'm going to post a reminder on my monitor, "No matter WHAT you know the truth is, do NOT say that Texas is anythng but Southern, Southern, Southern on city-data or you'll have to leave the thread in annoyance."

I'm now declaring that, for me, any thread even approaching this topic is off-limits and not to be even clicked on or, if accidentally clicked on, to be left within seconds.

Y'all have fun now, y'hear?
LOL Oh heck, THL..why put it like that? You and I are natural friends/allies on many -- if not most -- subjects...just not this one. I don't take it personal and hope you do not either.

I guess the hardest thing for me to understand is why -- when you and I butt our hard heads against one another on this subject -- you seemingly object to stating my reasons ("data" if you will) for believing what I do. I have always said (and you know this to be true!) if you have something to the contrary, then by all means state it. I might reject it, consider it, or accept it. I don't mind in the least acknowleging another person's good points whether I agree with them or not. For instance, DocJ, seems to take a somewhat "middle ground" between us (meaning you and me) on this whole South/Southwest thing (depending on the specific component), but he provides good "data" and personally relevant experiences as to why he thinks what he does, when he gives the opposing viewpoint.

So I guess what I am saying is, I don't quite grasp your objection to the presentation of "data" to "prove" either side...especially as I know you are a professional researcher (and I very much respect that).

I don't mean this in the least as being disrespectful, but the blunt truth is that, on this topic, I get the distinct feeling that you -- for whatever reason -- reject Texas as part of the South (which is fine if that is how you feel...you are certainly not alone) -- and it truly upsets you when others think differently. Not that there is anything wrong with that (cos, hell, you know how I am quick to leap on the opposite), but rather, it just comes across -- IMHO -- you just -- how to say it in the polite way intended? -- take for granted that your viewpoint is the correct one, and that that is that. And that those who don't agree with you are either being intentionally obstinate or wrapped up in fantasies of the Old South or something. On any other subject, you welcome data and evidence, and present your own (on whatever and however), but on this one? It is like: I don't want to hear anything to the contrary...it is so (nor not) because I say it is (or isn't).

But ok, my last word -- unless you rejoin -- is that I consider you a friend for sure. I just don't understand your approach to this one...
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Old 08-20-2011, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Houston (Memorial) and Western NC
8,979 posts, read 15,648,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorjef View Post
The African-American population in West Texas is relatively tiny and geographically isolated from the great Southern "Black Belt". Contrast with the large and prominent A-A component of places like Beaumont or smaller East TX communities like Jacksonville.

How long has it been since you've been to Jacksonville? The AA population has dropped in the past 10 years. And just like the rest of Texas, the Hispanic population is the second most "prominent" race in the area. Almost doubling in the past 10 years.
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Old 08-20-2011, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
16,498 posts, read 22,967,292 times
Reputation: 12793
TexasReb (and this is my last statement on the subject because we've been over this both on threads and privately and I'm out of here), I don't object to a difference of opinion. I don't even object to data supporting a viewpoint, in fact I request it (and provide it until it's evident that the only data that counts is that supporting the opposing viewpoint). I DO get annoyed at what could be called data dumping (let's pull out all the data that supports our viewpoint, even, in some cases, if we actually wrote part of it, and post so much of it that folks who disagree are buried under it), or lecturing, or any number of things other than discourse. It's not discussion, at all, in my view. Which is to say, it's more the nature of the way this topic is inevitably "discussed" here on City-Data that bugs me, not the topic itself.

As for stating that it truly upsets me when someone thinks differently - based on past and current observation, do you think maybe you might be projecting a bit there? You certainly seem upset enough whenever someone states or implies that Texas is not Southern all the way no matter what the other influences on it might have been before and after the War Between the States, and will rush in to make sure that we all know The Truth.
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Old 08-20-2011, 12:24 PM
Status: " On and off line interchangeably" (set 5 days ago)
 
9,823 posts, read 11,308,206 times
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Cathy and DocJ,

I see, acknowledge, and agree with the general counter-point of what both of y'all are saying. Yes, there is DEFINITELY that East/West Texas gradient in terms of a large black population. However, two things to consider:

1. In relative terms (meaning as compared to the true SW states), the hispanic population, even in West Texas, is comparatively recent (remember, I am speaking in relative time-frame terms). While it is true the African-American population/influence was never all that strong in the further western areas of the state, the influence and population of white Southerners clearly was. It easily outnumbered and "outranked" that of any hispanic/native American considerations. On that note -- and I know it is not a pleasant one to speak of, but it is history nonetheless -- perhaps because of that -- some of the strongest Southern type "Jim Crow" laws and enforcement, were in west Texas towns and cities. It was also the first part of Texas to begin to abandon its "Solid South" Democratic roots in favor of a brand of "Southern Republican" conservatism. Another clear indicator (IMHO) of ties to the American South rather than West/Southwest. I hasten to add, that a "value-judgement" on the above is a seperate issue and should be treated as such. I know for sure I have opinions that are decidedly NOT "politically-correct" here! LOL

2. No question that African-Americans are no longer the "majority-minority" (in 1860, a third of the population was black) in Texas as a whole. But such doesn't translate into that the actual numbers of blacks are declining, just that their proportion vis a vis Hispanics/Mexicans, are going down. And at THIS point one has to consider the illegal/temporary aspect of the question. My real point earlier was that, unlike in the other states considered (however defined) as Western/Southwestern, that it was the anglo/black duality in Texas that really shaped our history/culture.

But ok, now I gotta go see about picking up a new vehicle. Enjoyed the discussion and catch y'all later!
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Old 08-20-2011, 12:44 PM
Status: " On and off line interchangeably" (set 5 days ago)
 
9,823 posts, read 11,308,206 times
Reputation: 5054
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
TexasReb (and this is my last statement on the subject because we've been over this both on threads and privately and I'm out of here), I don't object to a difference of opinion. I don't even object to data supporting a viewpoint, in fact I request it (and provide it until it's evident that the only data that counts is that supporting the opposing viewpoint). I DO get annoyed at what could be called data dumping (let's pull out all the data that supports our viewpoint, even, in some cases, if we actually wrote part of it, and post so much of it that folks who disagree are buried under it), or lecturing, or any number of things other than discourse. It's not discussion, at all, in my view. Which is to say, it's more the nature of the way this topic is inevitably "discussed" here on City-Data that bugs me, not the topic itself.

As for stating that it truly upsets me when someone thinks differently - based on past and current observation, do you think maybe you might be projecting a bit there? You certainly seem upset enough whenever someone states or implies that Texas is not Southern all the way no matter what the other influences on it might have been before and after the War Between the States, and will rush in to make sure that we all know The Truth.
OK..I caught this before logging out. And agree not to reply again unless you do.

But THL, I am not trying to toot my own horn, but stand by what I said. I am trying to be considerate and respectful and polite on this disagreement. I am not projecting at all. What would I be projecting about?

What have I gotten upset about when others disagree with me? I mean, so long as the discussion/debate is carried on in a civil/respectful manner, I don't take it personally at all. Hell, far as that goes, I like what someone smart once said in effect that, "if you surround yourself with those who always agree with you, then you will never learn anything..." Lots of truth in that.

Also, the last part of your missive confirms something of what I have said. I NEVER said Texas is "Southern" all the way as in, say, the sense of a Mississippi or Alabama (if those states are to be used as the "standard"). Show me where I said that? I have ALWAYS agreed Texas is Texas. What Texan doesn't? What I HAVE said (and how many hundreds of posts can I dig out to confirm it?), is that, when put into an American region, Texas is essentially a Southern state.

I don't even know -- and neither does anyone really agree -- on what makes a state "totally Southern" (as you put it). Would you call Virginia part of the South? Or Florida? Or Kentucky? Or Arkansas? If so, what characteristics do they have that make them "Southern"...but not Texas? I even know some people in the deep Deep South (some are distant kin! LOL) who do not even consider Louisiana a "true" Southern state...believe it or not.

You accuse me of "data-dumping"...but at least data -- some sort of empirical evidence -- is provided. On the other hand, you disagree...yet provide nothing of your own. Then you further state, that discourse/conversation is not possible with me and you. Heck, THL, given those restrictions you seem to impose, then what IS a conversation on the subject? Like I say, unfortunately, it all comes back to that your opinion on the matter should be treated as the gospel truth. Something like: My outlook on the matter is the alpha and omega because I am from East Texas and decided early on Texas is not Southern, and therefore anything to the contrary (whether history, speech, religion, etc, even the writings of early settlers) can show CLEARLY it is), then that is all there is to it. Anything else is "dicta".

I am sorry, THL. Again, I do not mean to be harsh or brusque nor condecedning (which I have no right to be in any case), but this aspect of our exchanges I am hopelessly at loggerheads with you.

Now then, REALLY, I am gone...before the car lot closes! See y'all later!
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Old 08-20-2011, 07:26 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,691 posts, read 19,680,978 times
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From an outsider's point of view I couldn't distinguish most of Texas from the rest of the South. The accents are there, the southern culture is there.etc, it's just a different type of Southern from Louisiana or South Carolina, obviously, just as Tennessee is different from the Gulf. I think the term 'Southern' is so general these days it could be applied to anythinig and anywhere anyway: if Oklahoma and Kentucky are southern than I'd say at least half of Texas east of Abilene is definitely southern, while you could extend it to Lubbock or Midland.

The Texas type of southern reminds me more of the Appalachian/Upland type of southern in terms of accent and culture, although Eastern Texas is almost an extension of the Old South/Deep South.
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Old 08-20-2011, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Greenville, Delaware
4,644 posts, read 6,434,139 times
Reputation: 2365
I think Trimac20 has this correctly sussed for most of the state (possbily not for West TX). I strongly sympathise with TexasHorseLady, yet I conclude that my own prejudices toward having TX part of the SW rather than the South are based more on wishful thinking than reality. There certainly are signficant Southwestern aspects to parts of the state and here I would cite Austin,where I lived for the last 19 years before I left Texas. However, what I wish and what is reality aren't the same!
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:00 PM
 
Location: TX
8 posts, read 11,899 times
Reputation: 10
if u want to hear the real deal, tommy lee jones in no country for old men speaks with our natural w. tx brogue, of course he's one of us anyway..nary a mannerism out of place.

he got it at the gettin' place
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:31 AM
 
Location: Back in the PNW where I belong! See ya SoCal
1,336 posts, read 1,224,029 times
Reputation: 992
I can't ever recall anyone having a Texas accent in El Paso. The furthest west I've regularly heard the Texas accent I'd say is Junction. (I can't say anything about the pan-handle, as I've only been there once).
On another note, I tend to notice the accent is less strong in bigger cities more than anything. About half the people I knew that lived in Houston didn't sound too different from someone that lives on the West Coast (however, I tend to say the same thing about my mother, who grew up on the Texas-Louisiana border, but that's only because I'm so used to her accent that it doesn't stick out to me).

As well, Texas could easily be divided into several states. West Texas has more in common with the Southwest while East Texas is more like the Deep South.
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