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Nah, I've lived in every state from here straight east to the coast and I believe the deep south starts in East Texas and extends to the Atlantic ocean. East Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Northern Florida. Aside from a time zone change, not much difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ark90
To me, I don't see how people wouldn't think East Texas is Deep South. The same with South Arkansas. Either they haven't been there, or didn't pay attention in high school Geography/US History. And then there are the people who want to label Deleware as a Southern state...
Nah, I've lived in every state from here straight east to the coast and I believe the deep south starts in East Texas and extends to the Atlantic ocean. East Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Northern Florida. Aside from a time zone change, not much difference.
Must respectfully disagree. Florida is not a 'Southern State'. It just happens to be a State in the South
Must respectfully disagree. Florida is not a 'Southern State'. It just happens to be a State in the South
Not to speak for StaticKlingon, but I don't think he said "Florida is a Southern State"...but rather, that parts of it (such as the panhandle area just right south of Alabama and Georgia) ARE "Deep South" in character and etc. Same as with "East Texas". No question the WHOLE of Texas is not "Deep South", yet far East Texas certainly is! (IMHO).
On a lighter humorous note, concerning Florida, have you (or anyone else! LOL), ever seen this cute little ditty about the "Southern Barbeque Belt"? If not, here it is! LOL
I would say it is, both physically/geographically and culturally. Pine woods, cyprus, swamps, spanish moss, kudzu, alligators/bayous, sweet tea, grits, most black/white, ex-slave plantation, colonial homes, Civil War dignitaries, drawls. Houston may be becoming more cosmopolitan, though black folks in H-town still have thick as molasses accents. Have whites in say Beaumont ever spoken in a non-rhotic accent reminiscent of southern Alabama or Louisiana?
Beaumont, even Houston, seems in some ways closer to New Orleans than Austin.
Trimac20,
I grew up in the Groves, and never felt like I was part of the Deep South. The Beaumont, Port Arthur, Orange area is way, way more cosmopolitan than Deep East Texas. I always felt a kinship with Houston and industrial towns along I-10. I moved away for 15 years or so, including some time in Northern Virginia and Mobile Alabama.
After Ike we moved to Nacogdoches by way of San Augustine. I can tell you that "Deep East Texas" is more like the "Deep South" than "South East Texas" . If you drive up Highway 87 to Old Sabine Town and wander around long enough, you will come to a historical marker showing that you are standing on the site of an old slave trading station. The small paddle wheel boats would come up from Orange with the slaves and sell them at Old Sabine Town. To me this is a link to the Deep South.
However, slavery was only legal in Texas from about 1836 to 1864, while it was the culture in the rest of the south for a very long time. The other thing that sets Deep East Texas, or the area defined by most of the counties along the Louisiana border all the way to Caddo Lake, was the fact that it was a lawless area until well after the civil war.
Currently in San Augustine, the racial divide is typically deep south with the white and black getting along, but not well integrated. However, geographically that is changing, culturally not so much. For example, when the civic social activities happened, the mayor and his wife would show up and they would just about be the only black people in attendance. I found this odd as the town has a minority of white people. However, even that is changing, I was there only two years and from 2009 to 2011 the support from across the community for the Chili cook off seemed to increase.
Nacogdoches, just 45 miles to west is different, much different, however, it is the home of SFA, and while it still has a lot of the Old South Charm, a most of the cultural backwardness has been scrubbed off or painted over.
I think that lumping everything together based on political boundaries is foolhardy. There are some ridges that rise up between the Sabine River and the Angelina River valleys. In the 1800's these ridges were covered with pine forest, forests of Long Leaf pines growing to 6 feet in diameter and 200 feet tall. The trees were so tall and thick that they blocked out all light and left a carpet of highly acidic pine straw on the forest floor. Because of this the forest had little under growth except in the bottoms. These high places were called "Pine Barrens" because they had no life. Just to the north in Arkansas there were wide plains that could be used for cotton, and to the west starting near Crocket there were plains good for grazing cattle, but in East Texas, the giant trees has to fall. Those trees were a huge source of wealth, like mining for gold and silver. So, while there was some of the slave culture in East Texas, the places where it was economically feasible to establish the plantation culture was limited.
So, while Deep East Texas does not share a rich history with the rest of the Deep South, it has been very poor, and still is. This poverty brings about a lot of the same social mores and values that is also seen in the rest of the Deep South. In that way it is very like the Deep South.
However, slavery was only legal in Texas from about 1836 to 1864, while it was the culture in the rest of the south for a very long time. The other thing that sets Deep East Texas, or the area defined by most of the counties along the Louisiana border all the way to Caddo Lake, was the fact that it was a lawless area until well after the civil war.
These (your post) contain some very interesting and contemplative points...and much I agree with. However, I want to call attention to the "bolded ones" above.
Texas entered the Union as a "Lower South" state. To backtrack, even prior to 1836, it was a slave "nation". Yes, the Mexican government did not officially allow it, but that "law" was pretty much overlooked; as new settlers (overwhelmingly from the southeastern United States), brought their slaves with them. To get around the Mexican law, they had their slaves sign "documents" declaring themselves something like "indentured servants for life"...or something like that. Free black slave owners did the same thing.
Anyway, when Texas -- by way of the annexation treaty -- became an actual state? It was considered right off the bat a part of the "Cotton" Lower South. There was no question on it, and when the War started to break out, Texas was one of the original Confederate States (the original 7). Far as that goes, if it had not been for Gov. Sam Houston refusing to call the Texas Legislature into special secession to consider matters, there it is good evidence to support that Texas would have been right along with Mississippi in being the second state to secede (after South Carolina). As it was, when the question went to vote, Texas has the highest percentage of delegates (other than in SC) going all out for secession.
Call it foolhardy, rash, or unwise...but those are the facts of the matter. Texas was all out Confederate...and the second-to-last state to be re-admitted to the Union (Georgia was last).
But back to it, Texas was a slave nation and slave state for as long as its existance both ways. I hasten to add this is not making an historical judgement. Especially as the northern states have nothing to boast about, and the institution of slavery was definitely not confined to any nation, race, nor ethnic group, either as slaves or slave-holders. But, just the simple fact that Texas was Southern from the get go -- and still is -- in almost all of the essential ways.
Last edited by BstYet2Be; 08-13-2012 at 02:17 AM..
Reason: repaired quote tags
I grew up in the Groves, and never felt like I was part of the Deep South. The Beaumont, Port Arthur, Orange area is way, way more cosmopolitan than Deep East Texas. I always felt a kinship with Houston and industrial towns along I-10. I moved away for 15 years or so, including some time in Northern Virginia and Mobile Alabama.
After Ike we moved to Nacogdoches by way of San Augustine. I can tell you that "Deep East Texas" is more like the "Deep South" than "South East Texas" . If you drive up Highway 87 to Old Sabine Town and wander around long enough, you will come to a historical marker showing that you are standing on the site of an old slave trading station. The small paddle wheel boats would come up from Orange with the slaves and sell them at Old Sabine Town. To me this is a link to the Deep South.
However, slavery was only legal in Texas from about 1836 to 1864, while it was the culture in the rest of the south for a very long time. The other thing that sets Deep East Texas, or the area defined by most of the counties along the Louisiana border all the way to Caddo Lake, was the fact that it was a lawless area until well after the civil war.
Currently in San Augustine, the racial divide is typically deep south with the white and black getting along, but not well integrated. However, geographically that is changing, culturally not so much. For example, when the civic social activities happened, the mayor and his wife would show up and they would just about be the only black people in attendance. I found this odd as the town has a minority of white people. However, even that is changing, I was there only two years and from 2009 to 2011 the support from across the community for the Chili cook off seemed to increase.
Nacogdoches, just 45 miles to west is different, much different, however, it is the home of SFA, and while it still has a lot of the Old South Charm, a most of the cultural backwardness has been scrubbed off or painted over.
I think that lumping everything together based on political boundaries is foolhardy. There are some ridges that rise up between the Sabine River and the Angelina River valleys. In the 1800's these ridges were covered with pine forest, forests of Long Leaf pines growing to 6 feet in diameter and 200 feet tall. The trees were so tall and thick that they blocked out all light and left a carpet of highly acidic pine straw on the forest floor. Because of this the forest had little under growth except in the bottoms. These high places were called "Pine Barrens" because they had no life. Just to the north in Arkansas there were wide plains that could be used for cotton, and to the west starting near Crocket there were plains good for grazing cattle, but in East Texas, the giant trees has to fall. Those trees were a huge source of wealth, like mining for gold and silver. So, while there was some of the slave culture in East Texas, the places where it was economically feasible to establish the plantation culture was limited.
So, while Deep East Texas does not share a rich history with the rest of the Deep South, it has been very poor, and still is. This poverty brings about a lot of the same social mores and values that is also seen in the rest of the Deep South. In that way it is very like the Deep South.
Cheers
Qazulight
A very eloquent post, but I'm not seeing how any of this separates East Texas from the Deep South. As TexReb pointed out, this was Cotton Land, and the region's ties to the Lower South are clear as day.
Being a native Houstonian, I've grown up in close proximity to the Golden Triangle, and have never noticed any remarkable differences between Southeast Texas and the rest of the Gulf Coast towards Mississippi, aside from the obvious Cajun influences.
A very eloquent post, but I'm not seeing how any of this separates East Texas from the Deep South. As TexReb pointed out, this was Cotton Land, and the region's ties to the Lower South are clear as day.
Being a native Houstonian, I've grown up in close proximity to the Golden Triangle, and have never noticed any remarkable differences between Southeast Texas and the rest of the Gulf Coast towards Mississippi, aside from the obvious Cajun influences.
Even then there are Cajun influences all along the coast of Texas to Galveston county. Orange County feels like Cameron Parish to a "T."
A very eloquent post, but I'm not seeing how any of this separates East Texas from the Deep South. As TexReb pointed out, this was Cotton Land, and the region's ties to the Lower South are clear as day.
Being a native Houstonian, I've grown up in close proximity to the Golden Triangle, and have never noticed any remarkable differences between Southeast Texas and the rest of the Gulf Coast towards Mississippi, aside from the obvious Cajun influences.
Speaking of early Texas being prime "Cotton Country"? Yes, that was a lot of the reason so many southeastern settlers (black and white and both before and after the War) came to Texas. It is was "virgin" cotton country....rivaling that of the Mississippi delta area!
Anyway, here is a good article on it all. I don't know if I agree with all in it...but it seems very balanced in terms of a thesis on Texas history and its foundation (solid and connected!) with the South. It appears to be some college undergrad paper...but not bad at all in its basic facts. Which, boiled to greens and gravy, gives strong evidence of Texas as being basically a Southern state...and East Texas where the "Deep South" begins...or ends...depending on the direction of travel! LOL
Even then there are Cajun influences all along the coast of Texas to Galveston county. Orange County feels like Cameron Parish to a "T."
That's what I meant to say. It's the Cajun influences that separate Southeast Texas and Louisiana from parts of Gulf Coast Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida. Aside from that, there seems to be mostly parallels across the Gulf cities.
Asking because lived in Garland, TX 1990-2005 and was startled to learn from an old-timer that he remembered where I lived, it was a cotton field.
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Would "cotton fields" be a filter for culture?
