What Motivates All These Threads on Whether or Not Texas Is A Southern State? (Austin: live, estimates)

[ReppingDFW]

Originally Posted by doctorjef

The Northwest used to be Ohio.

[doctorjef]

@TexasReb: Maryland, My Maryland - State Song lyrics

Please note the lyrics concerning "the Northern Scum". The state song of Maryland is all to do with the events leading up to the Civil War and is distinctly antipathetic toward the Northern/Federal cause. You could hardly get more bellicose.

I think the thing is, after Maryland was politically secured for the Union, they probably didn't appreciate being invaded by Lee's forces anymore than Federal troops. Likely, too, MD slaveholders may have hoped to maintain their "property" at that point by staying loyal to the Union, esp. after the provisional Emancipation Proclamation was issued.

[Nairobi]

Originally Posted by blkgiraffe

That would only make matters worse for many considering many in southeast don't consider Texas a southern state.

And likewise, these individuals most likely have never been to Texas or don't know enough about it to have an informed opinion. A lot of folks from the southeast who don't think of Texas as the south most likely just think of us as a big ol' dusty land of Cowboys and Mexicans.

[Texas Liberal]

Originally Posted by doctorjef

@TexasReb: Maryland, My Maryland - State Song lyrics

Please note the lyrics concerning "the Northern Scum". The state song of Maryland is all to do with the events leading up to the Civil War and is distinctly antipathetic toward the Northern/Federal cause. You could hardly get more bellicose.

I think the thing is, after Maryland was politically secured for the Union, they probably didn't appreciate being invaded by Lee's forces anymore than Federal troops. Likely, too, MD slaveholders may have hoped to maintain their "property" at that point by staying loyal to the Union, esp. after the provisional Emancipation Proclamation was issued.

Sounds like "Central" from My Name is Earl that seceded from both the USA and the CSA.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by doctorjef

@TexasReb: Maryland, My Maryland - State Song lyrics Please note the lyrics concerning "the Northern Scum". The state song of Maryland is all to do with the events leading up to the Civil War and is distinctly antipathetic toward the Northern/Federal cause.

DocJ? I know the words of the Maryland state song. Matter of fact, it has the tune of the classic Christmas song "Oh, Christmas Tree" (or, in original "O Tannenbaum") But I seriously doubt one in ten Marylanders today, even know it, much less what if refers to...

You could hardly get more bellicose.

Point acknowledged...but yes, you could. That is, IF most joined the Southern side rather than the Northern. However, most went with the North to a degree that was decidedly clear.

I think the thing is, after Maryland was politically secured for the Union, they probably didn't appreciate being invaded by Lee's forces anymore than Federal troops.

Then why did most stay loyal to the Union? Lee (before marching into Maryland) issued a declaration welcoming Marylanders, without coersion, into the ranks of the South. This was at a time the South was winning and, actually, all advantages seemed to be with the South. But most Marylanders wanted no part of it. In any event, it was nothing like Texas...which was an all-out Confederate state.

In fact, even before Lincoln issued tyrannical orders to arrest and declare martial law (we may agree on this one), Maryland's legislators -- in reply to Lincoln's call for troops from each state to invade the Lower South (South Carolina thru Texas)? Maryland remained silent...indicating neutrality, although issuing (if I recall correctly) a mild statement against the federal government using force to invade another state(s).

Likely, too, MD slaveholders may have hoped to maintain their "property" at that point by staying loyal to the Union, esp. after the provisional Emancipation Proclamation was issued.

Of course they did. I can go along with that...even if for different reasons! To wit, slavery was an economic concern, not a moral one.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by blkgiraffe

That would only make matters worse for many considering many in southeast don't consider Texas a southern state.

SO what? To be honest, I have met very few of those southeastern "Deep South Purists" to have a clue as to what they are talking about, anyway. Most don't even know the history of their own states, much less that of the evolution of the Southern ethos.

To use poker parlance? Read 'em and weep, Georgians...the phrase "Empire State of the South" was first applied to TEXAS, in 1858.

BTW -- this is not a slam against Georgia and/or Georgians. It is a beautiful state and I have always liked folks I have met from there. I have quite a few friends over that way, for sure!

I'd damn sure rather live in Georgia than in Iowa (or any other state above the Mason-Dixon line)!

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by elan

I grew up reading The Southwestern Historical Quarterly (Texas history published since 1890ish), I was taught at both home (some ancestors were here as early as the 1840's) and school we were southwestern. So, of course I have to insert myself into the argument. Why? , I don't know. Perhaps I'm hardheaded, or maybe I don't like to see history rewritten. Either way, I guess it doesn't really matter. People are free to draw their own conclusions. Like you said, Texas is Texas.

I neglected to post this great article earlier. Note the evolution of the "Southwest"? Especially relevant is the 1850's definition of it...

http://www.census.gov/geo/www/GARM/Ch6GARM.pdf

[Nairobi]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

SO what? To be honest, I have met very few of those southeastern "Deep South Purists" to have a clue as to what they are talking about, anyway. Most don't even know the history of their own states, much less that of the evolution of the Southern ethos.

To use poker parlance? Read 'em and weep, Georgians...the phrase "Empire State of the South" was first applied to TEXAS, in 1858.

BTW -- this is not a slam against Georgia and/or Georgians. It is a beautiful state and I have always liked folks I have met from there. I have quite a few friends over that way, for sure!

I'd damn sure rather live in Georgia than in Iowa (or any other state above the Mason-Dixon line)!

Not even I knew that.

[doctorjef]

@TexasReb. OK I didn't mean to turn this into an annex of the MD forum but the federal occupation of MD was a sort of blitzkrieg that didn't leave the populace time to react, and then the bit of northern VA outlying DC was occupied and held successfully by Federal troops (I was at Arlington Natl Cemetary a couple weeks ago and got a chance to see again for the first time in many years how strategic that high ground was). Anyway I think MD was met with a fait accompli. That is different from the political maneuvering in other Southern border states.

Finally, pace TexasReb, I better add that I think Lincoln made absolutely the right decision by preventing MD from seceeding; anything else would have been exceeding stupid. He had to prevent the Federal capital from being surrounded, and Washington was a Southern city (geographically it still feels Southern to me even though it's only an hour and fifteen minutes on the train from where I live in northern Delaware -- the vegetation, weather and blooming patterns are just so much more Southern than even a little more than 100 miles to the north).

[homeinatx]

Originally Posted by Nairobi

Well, actually, we're discussing whether or not East Texas is a part of the Deep South (although it has currently digressed into a debate on whether or not Houston is now or has ever been ET), which is really a whole other topic.

In these countless "is this the South/Deep South" threads that I have participated in, one thing I and others have always asked--of those who maintained that this or that region of the state wasn't some particular level of southernness--is what they are seeing in "the real south" that they aren't finding in Texas? I have yet to get a solid answer from anyone, so I guess that's what I'm still fishing for.

It is actually really simple. Texas was a Mexican possession, has a long and ongoing relationship with Mexico, more than a third of its current residents are of Hispanic/Latino descent (It has the second largest population of Latinos after California), and "non-Hispanic whites" ( I hate the language of the census, but it is a useful shorthand) will be a minority in Texas in the next 10 years or so given the birth-rate and immigration - most of which is legal. (The last census estimates that only 5% of the Texas population is undocumented.)

Show me a "Southern" state with anything remotely similar to this history and current and future demographics. (Florida would be closest, but has only half the percentage of Latinos as Texas at 18% as opposed to 36%, and they are mostly Cuban not Mexican.) There are strong Southern elements in Texas, but what distinguishes Texas is what you can find in Texas that you cannot find in the "real South." And it's these historical and demographic facts that are the single biggest reason for why Texas differs enough from "the real South" to make its regional affiliation as anything other than itself impossible.

To answer your question directly: you can find in Texas many, if not most things that you find in the "real South" (You can also find them in DC, and Chicago, thanks to the Great Migration), but it is the things you can find in Texas that you cannot find in the "real South" that are equally important.