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Old 06-10-2012, 09:47 AM
 
392 posts, read 268,897 times
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Facilitating or condoning sexual activity among unmarried teens is a flawed and socially destabilizing public policy. Making it more tractable by mass distribution of contraceptives merely obscures its antisocial impact.

Think about heroin use among teenagers. Should the schools accept the possibility that teenagers wil use it and teach them safe injection techniques? Should the government provide safe grades of heroin to teenagers in order to prevent fatal overdoses?

The problem with drug use is that it distorts the perceptions of the users and destabilizes the society, makes it less functional. Well, promiscuous sexual behavior among unmarried teenagers is similar to drug use... The sense of intoxication, the high, the addiction, the long term destabilization of the society's ability to produce the next generation.

The European model... Enabling promiscuity by chemically or mechanically eliminating its effects, is as suspect as the rest of the current European culture... A society that is declining in population, and losing the Darwinian struggle to the Moslem world. To say nothing of its inability to even support it's own standard of living.

The ultimate problem is not the number of unwed pregnancies, it is the problem of how a society can create stable sexual relationships that will produce a sane and productive next generation.
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Old 06-10-2012, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
16,392 posts, read 22,627,024 times
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Pretending that teaching teenagers nothing but "don't do it" is a flawed policy doomed to failure. I say this as a former teenager, now old enough to be a grandmother, who actually remembers what it was like to be a teenager, and a mother who watched teenaged girls grow up and some of them get pregnant out of sheer ignorance.

Take a deep breath: this is likely to upset you. Sexuality is normal, and it occurs naturally and normally much earlier than our society would prefer. Telling teenagers in the throws of hormones to pretend it doesn't exist and "just don't do it" is not helpful and can be harmful in the extreme both because of the potential for babies and in terms of attitudes towards sexuality and human relationships. "Pretend the elephant isn't in the room" is NOT a recipe for stable sexual relationships that will produce a sane and productive next generation. It's a better recipe for teenagers squashed by being sat on by that very elephant.
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:15 AM
 
392 posts, read 268,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
Pretending that teaching teenagers nothing but "don't do it" is a flawed policy doomed to failure. I say this as a former teenager, now old enough to be a grandmother, who actually remembers what it was like to be a teenager, and a mother who watched teenaged girls grow up and some of them get pregnant out of sheer ignorance.

Take a deep breath: this is likely to upset you. Sexuality is normal, and it occurs naturally and normally much earlier than our society would prefer. Telling teenagers in the throws of hormones to pretend it doesn't exist and "just don't do it" is not helpful and can be harmful in the extreme both because of the potential for babies and in terms of attitudes towards sexuality and human relationships. "Pretend the elephant isn't in the room" is NOT a recipe for stable sexual relationships that will produce a sane and productive next generation. It's a better recipe for teenagers squashed by being sat on by that very elephant.
I'm not that far away from your opinion. The sex drive is certainly a powerful human force.

I agree that just reciting information is not enough to create abstinence. More is necessary.

But I do not agree that the sex drive cannot be controlled. One obvious control over sexual urges is the prohibition against rape. Our society has done a good job in getting teenagers to "abstain" from forcible sexual intercourse. Not a perfect job, unfortunately, but a good one. Obviously we have some control, even as teenagers.

Many societies have succeeded in restraining hormone drenched teenagers from sex, and the unfortunate truth is that our society has forgotten how to do it, or is too degenerate to make it happen.
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:39 AM
 
392 posts, read 268,897 times
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In practice, how do we control teenage sexuality?

Well, first of all, why control it. In the 19th century, the teenage years were a normal and usual time for people to marry, enter into adulthood, start a family. Today, we artificially delay childhood well into the twenties of people's lives, with the conceit that everyone attend a high school, attend college for anything other than menial work, and attend graduate school for work above the average.

I would think that our computer and Internet technology is quite advanced, but our understanding of human nature is quite degenerate.

Texas as a society has its problems, but by refusing to drink the "enabled promiscuity" kool-aid, it has retained some vestiges of sanity, along with the other desirable social practices that make this state a magnet for in-migration.
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Old 06-10-2012, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,498 posts, read 10,351,873 times
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Originally Posted by savanite View Post
First of all, we can agree that sexual behavior is pleasurable, which is why teenagers do it. It is also necessary for pregnancy. Thus, the process of becoming pregnant is pleasurable. I'd agree that the long term consequences are not...
You don't seem to understand teenagers very well. Long term consequences mean almost nothing to teenagers. There is no "long term." Teenagers are "immortal." Sex is not so much pleasurable as it is emotionally driven. And recent brain science has begun to help us understand why this is so. The portion of the brain that enables and promotes and is attracted to risky behavior develops ahead of the portion which moderates risky behavior.

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Originally Posted by savanite View Post
My view is that the criminal justice system is the proper institution to try to dissuade pleasurable, antisocial behavior. An effective abstinence program would have a coercive element, just as any other anti-crime program has a coercive element.
Let's be proactive and just lock them up in separate cages when they hit puberty, shall we?

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Originally Posted by savanite View Post
In my opinion, sociology is not a legitimate science, and it's conclusions have no value, especially compared to physics. It's no more credible than astrology, alchemy or creation science. But that is a topic for another thread.
OK, thanks for making your opinion clear. For many of the rest of us, sociology has proven itself valuable in helping us understand what people do, and why they do it. That's why the field is so widely respected, and its findings are so widely used, even if it isn't a "hard" science like physics.
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,498 posts, read 10,351,873 times
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Originally Posted by savanite View Post
Facilitating or condoning sexual activity among unmarried teens is a flawed and socially destabilizing public policy.
Fantasizing that good, comprehensive sexual education encourages sexual activity is a flawed response.

In fact, GOOD compehensive sexual education gives kids valuable tools to better resist peer pressure and personal urges. Telling teenagers NO has almost no value in our modern society, but teaching them how and why to decide to say no for themselves has excellent results.
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:28 PM
 
392 posts, read 268,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post

OK, thanks for making your opinion clear. For many of the rest of us, sociology has proven itself valuable in helping us understand what people do, and why they do it. That's why the field is so widely respected, and its findings are so widely used, even if it isn't a "hard" science like physics.
No, sociology majors are probably the most underpaid of any professional class. Well, the current hiatus in building, the massive overbuilding, may have depressed architects under sociology majors, but that will be temporary.

They may also have the lowest IQ scores.
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,498 posts, read 10,351,873 times
Reputation: 9612
Quote:
Originally Posted by savanite View Post
In practice, how do we control teenage sexuality?

Well, first of all, why control it. In the 19th century, the teenage years were a normal and usual time for people to marry, enter into adulthood, start a family.
Yes, and in our country's early years it was not unusual for girls to marry at 12 or 13. After all, Juliet was only 13 and Romeo only a couple of years older when they had one of the most well known sexual encounters of all times.

But here's something that people mostly don't know, and commonly fantasize in the wrong direction... in Colonial days, about half the marriages were precipitated by pregnancy. Yes, I'm talking about the Puritans. Nearly half the first children born in that era were born 3 - 6 months after their parents were married.

So THIS IS NOT A NEW ISSUE. We're just more open about talking about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by savanite View Post
Today, we artificially delay childhood well into the twenties of people's lives,
And today puberty is happening earlier and earlier... so clearly we have a vastly different situation than our forefathers had, and it requires a vastly different attitude.

The simple reality in our country today is that the average kid is going to be sexually active for probably 10 or 12 years before they are ready to get married and raise a family... if they ever do. We need to deal with that reality, rather than longing for an old paradigm that is no longer valid.

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Originally Posted by savanite View Post
with the conceit that everyone attend a high school, attend college for anything other than menial work, and attend graduate school for work above the average.
You veered off the topic again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by savanite View Post
"Texas as a society has its problems, but by refusing to drink the "enabled promiscuity" kool-aid, it has retained some vestiges of sanity, along with the other desirable social practices that make this state a magnet for in-migration.
Again you veered off the topic. The problem with lumping so many different topics into one big pile of complaints is that it muddies your thinking. Giving kids good, clear, responsible, comprehensive sex education has nothing to do with in-migration, or immigration either.
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:35 PM
 
392 posts, read 268,897 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
. Telling teenagers NO has almost no value in our modern society, but teaching them how and why to decide to say no for themselves has excellent results.
I'd agree that teaching people to determine their own best interests and how to act on them is beneficial.

But isn't that just common sense?

Do we need a sociology professor to explain the obvious?
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,498 posts, read 10,351,873 times
Reputation: 9612
Quote:
Originally Posted by savanite View Post
No, sociology majors are probably the most underpaid of any professional class. ...
They may also have the lowest IQ scores.
OK, I'll bite. What are your references for those assertions?
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