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Old 02-08-2013, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
13,715 posts, read 31,060,078 times
Reputation: 9270

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Quote:
Originally Posted by padcrasher View Post
Fair enough, but it goes without saying the argument that it's unconstitutional is just a charade. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But the motivation behind the lawsuits on behalf of wealthy districts is not for their love of the Rule of Law. It's the fact they want give less money to poorer districts and they see that legal angle as a way to get it done. Short sighted, self interest.
Of course the rich school districts want to keep more of the money they collect from taxpayers in their districts. The self interest you speak of is a powerful force - and for me it is driven by my desire for MY children to have the best public education we can collectively provide them. And I don't think citizens in a particular school district should be restricted because others have less. In other words, don't raise the floor by lowering the ceiling.

The lawsuit was about both Robin Hood and the education cuts imposed by the legislature during the last term. Rich school districts cannot simply raise taxes because they feel like it - so the loss of state funding the last two years was significant to all school districts. The Statesman said:

"Two-thirds of Texas’ school districts had sued the state, claiming that the Legislature failed to live up to its constitutional obligation to provide an “efficient system of public free schools.” Their multitude of claims amount to a culmination of nearly 30 years of school finance litigation.

They all argued that lawmakers ran afoul of the state constitution by cutting $5.4 billion in education aid in 2011 while simultaneously implementing more rigorous “college- and career-readiness” standards."

Two thirds of the school districts participated in the lawsuit - not just wealthy ones.

It is unconstitutional in Texas to have a state property tax. The existing Robin Hood law takes property taxes from one area, sends it to Austin, then redistributes it. It ends up a state property tax - which the judge ruled unconstitutional.

If you read the judge's ruling - he also said Texas cannot require school districts to meet academic standards if the state does not provide enough funding to do so.

So what lies ahead is that Texas must provide enough funding for school districts to have a realistic chance of meeting academic standards. They can't do it with the existing Robin Hood model - which is unconstitutional. So they will have to fund it a different way.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:45 PM
 
Location: #
9,598 posts, read 16,520,975 times
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I'm telling you all, as someone who is pretty deeply entrenched in Texas education that this is not a "Robin Hood" fight.

The reason it is constitutional is because of the charter schools. Like them or not, they are throwing a monkey wrench into things.
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:17 PM
 
5,253 posts, read 6,358,392 times
Reputation: 6218
Quote:
When I was in high school I remember sharing worksheets and music in most of my classes because we didn't have enough money to make the copies we needed.
The median single family home price in Prosper is $401,000. (the median home price across the rest of TX is less than $200k) As of the 2010 census, the population was 9,423.

Prosper High School cost $113.5 million to construct and is 590,000-square-feet, complete with a medical tech lab, a restaurant-worthy kitchen, a greenhouse, a broadcast studio and an indoor football practice facility. Despite all this, the city of Prosper itself has almost no businesses, and those that are there were built relatively recently.

Prosper pays on average about $150k a year in transfer funds. Let's compare $150k a year vs $113.5 million for the school. The town of Prosper wouldn't exist without 'robin hooding' money away from Plano, Dallas, and other nearby cities that have a jobs base, but it's really sad that your city couldn't afford the dollar it costs to print a few sheets of paper.


Data here. The transfer payments are at the bottom:
http://www.tea.state.tx.us/index2.aspx?id=6796

Last edited by TheOverdog; 02-08-2013 at 04:47 PM..
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:15 PM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,541,842 times
Reputation: 5943
Quote:
Originally Posted by crbcrbrgv View Post
I'm telling you all, as someone who is pretty deeply entrenched in Texas education that this is not a "Robin Hood" fight.

The reason it is constitutional is because of the charter schools. Like them or not, they are throwing a monkey wrench into things.
What is so wrong with charter schools? Or vouchers? I am not saying you are saying there is, I am just asking.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
578 posts, read 1,223,378 times
Reputation: 776
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Thing is, Padcrasher, money doesnt matter, really. It is not PC to say so, but it it the truth. I have been in this business for going on 15 years, and no social/monetary redistribution theory is going to convince someone of what their own personal experience tells them is simply not true.

Truth is? One can take every bit of money out of, say, Highland Park and give it all to some district in south Dallas? It won't change anything at all in terms of raising kids state test scores. That is dependent upon home situations and the value placed upon education itself. It just wont. Let face it...because sooner or later we are going to have to. Some demographic groups put a lower priority on schooling than others do. That is just a fact.
Bingo! Starts in the home, and no amount of school funding is going to help on that issue. Washington DC is spending over double per student when compared to Texas, and they are ranked consistently near the bottom. Blaming others instead of looking within has become a popular trend in our society today. It is always someone else's fault...
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Old 02-09-2013, 03:25 PM
 
13,186 posts, read 14,941,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by die Eichkatze View Post
Bingo! Starts in the home, and no amount of school funding is going to help on that issue. Washington DC is spending over double per student when compared to Texas, and they are ranked consistently near the bottom. Blaming others instead of looking within has become a popular trend in our society today. It is always someone else's fault...
Nobody makes the claim money will solve all the problems! That's a straw man argument. I also agree demographic factors play the bigger role in performance. Again, Texas at one point not long ago was 47th is per pupil funding and you want to compound the problem for poorer school districts by pulling more funding from them? Your short sighted, dog-eat-dog mentality would be laughed at in more advanced societies where you could never get away treating kids as unfairly as that. Historians long ago praised Americans for having "self interest, rightly understood" That's giving every kid a fair shot. Not some survival of the fittest, rat race where you hope to turn us into Brazil with 1% Elites, 2% middle class, and 98% living in squalor. I have $510K on the tax roll in one of the wealthiest school districts in the State and it's mindboggling to me whites like myself living in houses 1/5th that value consistently vote for right wingers, who cut their own kids, ability to compete with the kids of the rich. You just aren't sophisticated enough to even vote in your own family's self interest because you can't get over a brown person obtaining a government benefit.

Last edited by padcrasher; 02-09-2013 at 03:52 PM..
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Old 02-09-2013, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
578 posts, read 1,223,378 times
Reputation: 776
Quote:
Originally Posted by padcrasher View Post
........ and you want to compound the problem for poorer school districts by pulling more funding from them?
Nope, never said that. My point of agreement was that no amount of money would help improve low preforming schools and that the main problem is the lack of parent participation. Race and income don't matter if their parents aren't making sure their kid is doing the work required of them instead of hanging out with their friends, or watching TV, or playing video games, ect. I think most rational people want the best for the children, but they also don't want their money misused. If $5k per student is enough to provide a kid with a solid education, then so be it. If it is $15k per student, then fine. If I feel that my school isn't using my tax money wisely, then I will vote for someone else to sit on the school board.


Quote:
Your short sighted, dog-eat-dog mentality would be laughed at in more advanced societies where you could never get away treating kids as unfairly as that. Historians long ago praised Americans for having "self interest, rightly understood" That's giving every kid a fair shot. Not some survival of the fittest, rat race where you hope to turn us into Brazil with 1% Elites, 2% middle class, and 98% living in squalor. I have $510K on the tax roll in one of the wealthiest school districts in the State and it's mindboggling to me whites like myself living in houses 1/5th that value consistently vote for right wingers, who cut their own kids, ability to compete with the kids of the rich. You just aren't sophisticated enough to even vote in your own family's self interest because you can't get over a brown person obtaining a government benefit.
Nice rant.....gotta go, a few of my redneck friends are coming over to my $190k shack to drink cheap beer and watch Roadhouse or maybe even a John Wayne movie. Might even class it up a bit and drink out of wine glasses...all sophisticated like.
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
13,715 posts, read 31,060,078 times
Reputation: 9270
Quote:
Originally Posted by padcrasher View Post
Nobody makes the claim money will solve all the problems! That's a straw man argument. I also agree demographic factors play the bigger role in performance. Again, Texas at one point not long ago was 47th is per pupil funding and you want to compound the problem for poorer school districts by pulling more funding from them? Your short sighted, dog-eat-dog mentality would be laughed at in more advanced societies where you could never get away treating kids as unfairly as that. Historians long ago praised Americans for having "self interest, rightly understood" That's giving every kid a fair shot. Not some survival of the fittest, rat race where you hope to turn us into Brazil with 1% Elites, 2% middle class, and 98% living in squalor. I have $510K on the tax roll in one of the wealthiest school districts in the State and it's mindboggling to me whites like myself living in houses 1/5th that value consistently vote for right wingers, who cut their own kids, ability to compete with the kids of the rich. You just aren't sophisticated enough to even vote in your own family's self interest because you can't get over a brown person obtaining a government benefit.
You keep harping on the 47th per pupil funding -which is a meaningless statistic. You haven't yet cited a single case where spending more money will improve education. East Austin schools spend more pupil than than Eanes ISD spends, yet perform FAR worse. What do you propose to do with more money?

I don't advocate spending less. But until you can show that spending more money will do something meaningful then we should be very careful before we throw money at the problem.

It is offensive that you accuse people like me of not being sophisticated when you haven't demonstrated anything more than an ideological position that we need to do more. I don't think you have a clue where school funding in Texas comes from nor how it is actually spent.
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
13,715 posts, read 31,060,078 times
Reputation: 9270
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOverdog View Post
The median single family home price in Prosper is $401,000. (the median home price across the rest of TX is less than $200k) As of the 2010 census, the population was 9,423.

Prosper High School cost $113.5 million to construct and is 590,000-square-feet, complete with a medical tech lab, a restaurant-worthy kitchen, a greenhouse, a broadcast studio and an indoor football practice facility. Despite all this, the city of Prosper itself has almost no businesses, and those that are there were built relatively recently.

Prosper pays on average about $150k a year in transfer funds. Let's compare $150k a year vs $113.5 million for the school. The town of Prosper wouldn't exist without 'robin hooding' money away from Plano, Dallas, and other nearby cities that have a jobs base, but it's really sad that your city couldn't afford the dollar it costs to print a few sheets of paper.


Data here. The transfer payments are at the bottom:
Texas Education Agency - Chapter 41 Wealth Equalization
I'm sorry but the point of your post isn't obvious to me. If you are trying to say that Prosper benefits from the economy of nearby DFW -sure. But that is true of just about every suburb, isn't it? They didn't get their property wealth by force of law.

Prosper only recently became a "rich" school district according to Chapter 41. The ISD budget is about $55M, right at the normal range for a district of its size. Most high schools in Texas that size cost over $100M now. Prosper passed a bond package to pay for that school (and lots of other things). Taxpayers will be funding the repayment of those bonds for 10-20 years.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Plano, TX
770 posts, read 1,791,290 times
Reputation: 718
With property taxes being as high as they are in Texas already, you would think that there would be enough tax money even in the poor counties (such as the Lower Rio Grande Valley counties) to adequately to fund the public schools in those counties.

Despite some of my views, I am against the Robin Hood taxes. Each county should have enough money to fund it's school systems from taxes on properties. If not, where is all of that tax revenue going? In the 3 years that I have been here in TX I have heard from many locals that most of the education funding comes from the property taxes.
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