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Oh, TexasReb, you know I love ya, and we're not fighting, we're debating. Big difference! But here goes:
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I always enjoy talking/debating/discussing with those who can make a case for their arguments...even if I vehemently disagree with the argument.
Back atcha!
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That is a little overkill, don't you think, sis? I don't know anyone who supports capital punishment that would take any kind of pleasure in "pulling the switch" on someone.
Yeah, yeah, I know I said earlier that I would be honored to have the chance to do it with a Ted Bundy or Kenneth McDuff. And on some levels I mean exactly that. No telling how many innocent lives could have been saved if I had...or anyone had.
But no. It would -- like a cop who has to take a life in self-defense -- haunt me forever. Justifiable, yes, absolutely. Without any lingering thoughts? No, I would always remember it. Which, I might add, it something that the sociopath being executed likely never gives a second thought to...
Anyway, you know I give quite a bit of stock to your opinions; no question on that score. Still, I think you are transposing a Middle Age mentality on those of us today who have not the slightest such outlook/mindset today. That is the reason that there are constitutional prohibitions on cruel and unusual punishment. As well there should be.
You're a nice person, probably nicer than most. Are you honestly telling me that you've never heard anyone say they'd love to be the one to pull the switch? I hear people say that all the time. You must be living around a higher caliber of person than I am...
I don't doubt that doing the deed would bother you - but what I said is that I've heard people all my life literally gloating about someone being put to death for a murder. I've heard people laughing about it ("Crispy critter!"). I've heard people describe in great, gory detail exactly what they would love to do to a convicted murderer, or what they think justice SHOULD be - and honestly, they often sound absolutely medieval in their descriptions.
So no - I don't think we've evolved much past those crowds gathering on Tower Hill. You and I perhaps, and our circle of close friends...but the general public? Nahhhhh...sorry.
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On a related tangent, I actually think the real posturing and righteous lectures as to moral attitudes and judgement are mostly from the death penalty opponents.
Well, you may be right on that, because I don't think that the general public puts much deep theological thought into anything, including the death penalty. And lest you accuse me of being self righteous or judgmental myself, let me just ask you...when was the last time you went to, say, a rave, or a rap concert or spent a weekend at the Retreat Apartments (Texas State University student apartments), or spring break in South Padre? Just let me remind you, as my daddy used to say in horror when finding himself in similar situations, "Damn - there's more of them than there are of us."
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I don't know what most people think. That is up to "most people" and their own consciences and sense of morality to work out. Do you know, either, Kathy?
See above. Also, I don't have to go to South Padre, or the Retreat, to see the moral decay of our society all around me.
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I think you in turn, hon, might be a bit stretching in seemingly implying that supporters of capital punishment today have anything in common with those who used to gather on Tower Hill. You know I apologize if I read that wrong.
Oh, no, you're fine - and you read it right. Of course, I don't think ALL supporters of capital punishment are blood thirsty, medieval minded thugs - but I do think that many are, whether the more thoughtful, intellectual supporters acknowledge that segment of their constituency or not.
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The theological implications? Again, we all have to work it out ourselves. Personally, I can square the concept of capital punishment with my own respect for human life.
Personally, I can't. Just as I oppose abortion, I also oppose capital punishment. And just as I acknowledge that there could be some exceptions to my stance on abortion, I acknowledge that there could be exceptions in the case of capital punishment. Self defense, in both cases, would be one exception.
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Far as that goes, the greatest disprespect to human life is for society to not punish to the maximum those who take it in the most callous manner possible. That was a Kenneth McDuff and Ted Bundy. Just to mention a couple.
There are many heinous murderers among us, unfortunately. My opposition of capital punishment doesn't mean that I think their actions are not absolutely the most vile imaginable.
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How many innocent people have been brutally murdered by those let out of prison?
Probably quite a few, which is why I am OPPOSED to letting capital murderers out of prison - ever. That's why I voted for "Life in prison without parole."
I hear the argument that even if we sentence them to life in prison without parole, they may yet be released some day through some law. So in other words, the government and judicial system would be stupid enough and incompetent enough to let a murderer in jail for life without parole OUT? And we would trust this same system to implement the death sentence? I don't think so. As I have stated many times now, one of my main objections to the death penalty is that I don't like trusting our government, or any government, with that much power.
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But anyway, can you provide a source for these figures?
I was wrong about the number of death row inmates who have been exonerated (too high). I was also wrong about the number of people exonerated from crimes, based on DNA evidence (too low). I can't remember how I got those figures - must have been drinking wine at the time - LOL. But here are the corrected figures and a better source:
From the article: October 3, 2011
In the U.S., as of September 2011, 273 people including 17 death row inmates, have been exonerated by use of DNA tests. The increasing use of DNA testing to help confirm the innocence or guilt in capital cases is one among many reforms that will help ensure that innocent people are not sentenced to death.
So my assertion was that since we've exonerated death row inmates LATER, after sentencing, based on new evidence, the odds are that we've probably put to death innocent people under the death penalty prior to DNA evidence.
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On the other hand, I can provide quite a few actual names of those murdered by those who were paroled/escaped/etc, and went out to kill again.
I believe we can manage to imprison murderers for life WITHOUT PAROLE. I know that's a newish concept for Texas, since Texas was the last state in the union to offer that option (wow, by the way). But it's a valid, and better, option in my opinion, in most cases, than the death penalty.
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Disparity? Is the person being sentenced guilty or not? That is all that matters to me. Are they guilty or not?
That's only part of the picture to me. Do you think it's OK to execute more people for murdering white people than are executed for murdering minorities? Are white people's lives worth more than the lives of minority people? Do you think it's OK for female murderers to get off more easily than male murderers, just because of their gender? Are male lives less valuable than female lives?
Though fifty-three percent of murder victims are African American, 77 percent of the victims of death row inmates are white. FBI — Expanded Homicide Data
The disparity of the use of the death penalty is a big concern to me. But then, I have a very racially diverse family so maybe I think about these things more often. If, God forbid, one of my precious cafe latte grandchildren was murdered, I'd want the court to consider their life just as precious and valuable as the life of a lily white child. I don't see that sort of respect for all human life in our judicial system.
By the way, just for the record, though African American males commit about 52 percent of the murders in the US, they only account for 35 percent of death row inmates. So - white guys, who commit fewer murders, per capita, are more often sent to death row.
No, not insane, always. Most have a personality flaw of being a total sociopath, but not insane as they do not understand the difference between "right and wrong." These individuals have no conscience, no regard for human life and to take it is just about what most of us give a damn about swatting a fly. No second thoughts at all. Truman Capote, in his book "In Cold Blood" was the first ever done which really attempted to capture this mindset. The hardest thing for most middle-class individuals is to wrap around that there are some absolutely sadistic people out there and they will take your head off without batting an eye. Bundy and McDuff were just two of the species. They were not insane, they were just vermin that needed shot down like mad dogs.
And that's not mentally ill to you? Sociopathy is a mental disorder. Now - don't get me wrong - I still believe that society must be protected from such people. And I still think that, as much as possible, we must hold ALL mentally ill people accountable for their actions. http://www.psychologytoday.com/condi...ality-disorder
By the way, I have a brother who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and a personality disorder. He is violent and dangerous, and my parents had to have him arrested and involuntarily committed. He has been an absolute JERK toward me and my children since his early adulthood, and even now that he's on meds which effectively control his symptoms of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, he is still a sociopath and still a jerk. And we are learning the importance, IN THE ROLE OF HIS TREATMENT, to still hold him ACCOUNTABLE for his actions and to demand that he treat us, and others, with respect. He's not doing all that well with that part of it - and it's a good thing for everyone that he's incarcerated. He needs to stay that way, even though he has not, of course, committed any murders or even particularly violent crimes (the threat of them is enough, thank goodness, to keep him under lock and key).
Lest you think this has made me MORE sympathetic, please think again. Though thru my brother's struggles with serious mental illness, I have learned a lot more about personality disorders and OTHER mental illnesses, I have also learned just how difficult it is to treat a person who is, frankly, this messed up. This experience has taught me, even more than I would have ever thought or wished, the importance of protecting others from potentially violent sociopaths.
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But note something? Jesus never once spoke against the death penalty itself.
Nor did He speak in favor of it. He did, however, tell the people who were gathered to administer the death penalty to the woman "caught in adultery, " that "he who is not guilty - cast the first stone."
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But seriously, if one is going to invoke the Bible as a moral source, then you can't cherry pick. Welll, you CAN...but others can do the same as well.
I mean, I don't understand in the least any passage which would justify stoning teenagers to death. But then again, I don't understand the Mind Of God, nor what was implied by such.
However, the justification for the Death Penalty seems much more forthright and clear. That is, there are crimes which are so heinous, so brutal and callous, that society has an obligation to its own children to execute them by lawful means. And IMO, the teachings of the Bible (New Testament included), back it up.
Very interesting.
As a Christian, I am personally very glad that we are not held to the harsh OT law - the same law that allowed - no, ORDERED - rebellious teens to be stoned. The same law that mandated that adulterers be stoned as well.
The Old Testament mandated the death penalty for the following offenses:
Murder (Exodus 21:12-14; Leviticus 24:17,21) Attacking or cursing a parent (Exodus 21:15,17) Disobedience to parents (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
Failure to confine a dangerous animal, resulting in death (Exodus 21:28-29)
Witchcraft and sorcery (Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 20:27, Deuteronomy 13:5, 1 Samuel 28:9)
Human sacrifice (Leviticus 20:2-5)
Sex with an animal (Exodus 22:19, Leviticus 20:16) Doing work on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:14, 35:2, Numbers 15:32-36)
Incest (Leviticus 18:6-18, 20:11-12,14,17,19-21) Adultery (Leviticus 20:10; Deuteronomy 22:22)
Homosexual acts (Leviticus 20:13)
Prostitution by a priest's daughter (Leviticus 21:9)
Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:14,16, 23) False prophecy (Deuteronomy 18:20) Perjury in capital cases (Deuteronomy 19:16-19) Refusing to obey a decision of a judge or priest (Deuteronomy 17:12) False claim of a woman's virginity at time of marriage (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)
Sex between a woman pledged to be married and a man other than her betrothed (Deuteronomy 22:23-24) What Does the Bible Say About Capital Punishment and the Death Penalty?
So, personally, I am glad that I don't live under OT law.
I believe that the New Testament brings in the concept of grace - that the atonement of Jesus brings us grace, so that we do NOT have to "get all that we deserve." We can never earn that grace, and without it, we deserve eternal separation from the perfection of God - that's how I see it anyway.
Nationally, during the 23-year study period, the overall rate of prejudicial error in the
American capital punishment system was 68%. In other words, courts found serious,
reversible error in nearly 7 of every 10 of the thousands of capital sentences that were
fully reviewed during the period.
• Capital trials produce so many mistakes that it takes three judicial inspections to catch them —
leaving grave doubt whether we do catch them all. After state courts threw out 47% of death
sentences due to serious flaws, a later federal review found “serious error”—error undermining the
reliability of the outcome—in 40% of the remaining sentences.
There have been five posthumous exonerations in the United States, and three of those cases involved death row inmates who died in prison prior to their execution date.
LOL I think you and I are going to end up writing a novel before this is all over with! (and of course to re-interate that this is a good discussion and not any animosity in the least, involved. Although you will owe me a catfish dinner if we ever visit! LOL
Anyway, let's proceed!
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=KathrynAragon;31121946]
You're a nice person, probably nicer than most. Are you honestly telling me that you've never heard anyone say they'd love to be the one to pull the switch? I hear people say that all the time. You must be living around a higher caliber of person than I am...
Thanks Kat...and I feel the same about you! *HUGS*
Yes, I even said it myself. And I stand by it on many levels. That is to say, there are some "people" who have committed the most heinous crimes that, if the choice was to execute them myself with the alternative being to know that if they were ever released (and that happens and always will), they would kill another innocent person? Then I choose the former side.
On the other hand? I know -- and have debated with -- some, who frankly state they would prefer -- if it came down to either/or -- because of their moral objection to capital punishment, they would be willing to accept innocent people being murdered as the necessary/acceptable price to pay for abolishing the death penalty. I don't feel that way.
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I don't doubt that doing the deed would bother you - but what I said is that I've heard people all my life literally gloating about someone being put to death for a murder. I've heard people laughing about it ("Crispy critter!"). I've heard people describe in great, gory detail exactly what they would love to do to a convicted murderer, or what they think justice SHOULD be - and honestly, they often sound absolutely medieval in their descriptions.
But I say again, Kathy, the most callous attitudes I -- personally -- have ever seen are from those who oppose the death penalty to the point they are willing to accept the most brutal murders possible as a fair trade for eliminating it.
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So no - I don't think we've evolved much past those crowds gathering on Tower Hill. You and I perhaps, and our circle of close friends...but the general public? Nahhhhh...sorry.
Why do you say that, sis? Do you honestly think the "general public" would be supportive of the type of punishment that occurred in the Tower of London? I am not trying to be patronizing in the least (for one thing, I have no credentials to be), but c'mon, hon...
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Well, you may be right on that, because I don't think that the general public puts much deep theological thought into anything, including the death penalty. And lest you accuse me of being self righteous or judgmental myself, let me just ask you...when was the last time you went to, say, a rave, or a rap concert or spent a weekend at the Retreat Apartments (Texas State University student apartments), or spring break in South Padre? Just let me remind you, as my daddy used to say in horror when finding himself in similar situations, "Damn - there's more of them than there are of us."
Well, I confess I am really not sure what you are asking here. But if I read it right, I agree with what you seem to be saying here. If so, no question on that score! BUT...such is not the attitude of most average middle/working class people.
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See above. Also, I don't have to go to South Padre, or the Retreat, to see the moral decay of our society all around me.
And once again I agree with you. As do I imagine most posters do as well.
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Personally, I can't. Just as I oppose abortion, I also oppose capital punishment. And just as I acknowledge that there could be some exceptions to my stance on abortion, I acknowledge that there could be exceptions in the case of capital punishment. Self defense, in both cases, would be one exception.
Then actually it sounds like your answer to the poll question would be something like "Yes, however" or "No,but". Which I fully respect!
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Probably quite a few, which is why I am OPPOSED to letting capital murderers out of prison - ever. That's why I voted for "Life in prison without parole."
And again, I could go along with that IF there was a guarantee there would be no escape, no possibility of parole, and would have to serve the hardest time possible. But can never be any such thing. See below for more detail.
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I hear the argument that even if we sentence them to life in prison without parole, they may yet be released some day through some law. So in other words, the government and judicial system would be stupid enough and incompetent enough to let a murderer in jail for life without parole OUT? And we would trust this same system to implement the death sentence? I don't think so. As I have stated many times now, one of my main objections to the death penalty is that I don't like trusting our government, or any government, with that much power.
I don't trust our government, period! LOL BUT...leaving that one aside for now...
Two things to consider:
1. First, many of those (not in the least saying you are one of them), who oppose the death penalty, actually -- on an ideological level -- oppose the whole concept of punishment at all. That is, they ostensibly support "life without parole" but not because they truly want it as an alternative. Rather, they see it as a "stalking horse" to eventually abolish capital punishment completely. Once that happens? They will seek to repeal "life without parole."
2. It simply cannot be guaranteed that a person sentenced to life without parole will ever not escape/kill a guard/serve out the said sentence. Or that the law (see above) might not change to allow eventual release.
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I was wrong about the number of death row inmates who have been exonerated (too high). I was also wrong about the number of people exonerated from crimes, based on DNA evidence (too low). I can't remember how I got those figures - must have been drinking wine at the time - LOL. But here are the corrected figures and a better source:
I don't doubt those figures. But doesn't the fact the error was caught, indicate that there are lots of safeguards in the system?
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So my assertion was that since we've exonerated death row inmates LATER, after sentencing, based on new evidence, the odds are that we've probably put to death innocent people under the death penalty prior to DNA evidence.
And I said so myself, earlier. I don't like that anymore than you do. In fact -- to repeat -- in any human criminal justice system, there are going to be the possibility of mistakes. It is troubling, I admit...and the fact is such a fact is the basis for any doubts I have concerning capital punishment.
But to me? The benefits compensate for the doubts. Just as in a "just war". It is not an easy thing to reflect on, but IMHO, simple justice lends to tipping the scales in favor of capital punishment
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That's only part of the picture to me. Do you think it's OK to execute more people for murdering white people than are executed for murdering minorities? Are white people's lives worth more than the lives of minority people? Do you think it's OK for female murderers to get off more easily than male murderers, just because of their gender? Are male lives less valuable than female lives?
Oh c'mon Kathy. Please. You know damn well I am not making a case for any such thing as that. That is pure deflection and driving the discussion into a ditch. I expect better than that from you!
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Race of victims of death row inmates:
The disparity of the use of the death penalty is a big concern to me. But then, I have a very racially diverse family so maybe I think about these things more often. If, God forbid, one of my precious cafe latte grandchildren was murdered, I'd want the court to consider their life just as precious and valuable as the life of a lily white child. I don't see that sort of respect for all human life in our judicial system.
Again, my dear friend, please don't get holier than thou on all this. I don't care a lick if the murderer if black, white, Hispanic, or purple-polka dotted. The important point to me is simply this:
Is that person guilty of a capital crime or not? Do certain demographic segments of the population commit more capital crimes (per capita, proportionally), than others? If so, then it would only make sense that there might be a disproportionate application.
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By the way, just for the record, though African American males commit about 52 percent of the murders in the US, they only account for 35 percent of death row inmates. So - white guys, who commit fewer murders, per capita, are more often sent to death row.
Kathy? I don't like the figures any more than you do, but confine them to those of a capital murder variety? Then what do the figures say?
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And that's not mentally ill to you? Sociopathy is a mental disorder. Now - don't get me wrong - I still believe that society must be protected from such people. And I still think that, as much as possible, we must hold ALL mentally ill people accountable for their actions. http://www.psychologytoday.com/condi...ality-disorder
No, it isn't (mentally ill, that is). At least not in the sense of being insane and not understanding the difference between right and wrong. What it is is a personality disorder. But then again, we are probably loosely on the same page here...
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Nor did He speak in favor of it. He did, however, tell the people who were gathered to administer the death penalty to the woman "caught in adultery, " that "he who is not guilty - cast the first stone."
He also told her, go your way and sin no more. In other words, He didn't just negate the law and the punishment. Right?
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As a Christian, I am personally very glad that we are not held to the harsh OT law - the same law that allowed - no, ORDERED - rebellious teens to be stoned. The same law that mandated that adulterers be stoned as well. So, personally, I am glad that I don't live under OT law.
As am I. But? Consider another point as well? The Constitution of our United States prohibits "cruel and unusual punishment". Which is as it should be. What lots of those links you provided are not -- IMHO -- a refutation of the concept of capital punishment itself, but, if taken in the whole scheme of things, the fact that what is punishable by the death penalty can change over the years. I have no problem with that.
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I believe that the New Testament brings in the concept of grace - that the atonement of Jesus brings us grace, so that we do NOT have to "get all that we deserve." We can never earn that grace, and without it, we deserve eternal separation from the perfection of God - that's how I see it anyway.
And I can agree with that, Kathy sis, on lots of moral stair-steps. But I still maintain such does not go against the death penalty for certain extreme crimes.
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Can you find any passage in the New Testament which supports the death penalty?
Can you find any which prohibits it? What I can provide is that Jesus said clearly that he was not intending for His testament to destroy the "law" or the "prophets".
Also, I think this is important as well. When He was on the Cross, and there were other ones on each side of him? And the thief on one side asked Jesus to speak well of him, and Jesus replied along the lines of "This day you shall join me in Paradise.?
Well, the notable thing -- in human parlance? -- is that He saved his soul, not his ass!
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Tag, you're it! And thanks for a civil discussion on this very sensitive topic, by the way.
Oh hell, hon. As you say, this is just great friends jabbing and sparing and all. I luvs you to pieces! HUGS!
LOL I think you and I are going to end up writing a novel before this is all over with! (and of course to re-interate that this is a good discussion and not any animosity in the least, involved. Although you will owe me a catfish dinner if we ever visit! LOL
This debate is EPIC! LOL And since clearly I'm winning it, I do think that YOU owe ME a catfish dinner! But who's quibbling, eh?
Yes, I even said it myself. And I stand by it on many levels. That is to say, there are some "people" who have committed the most heinous crimes that, if the choice was to execute them myself with the alternative being to know that if they were ever released (and that happens and always will), they would kill another innocent person? Then I choose the former side.
Yes, but that's not the attitude I'm talking about. That's YOUR attitude and there's some merit to it. But I don't see that in many people who discuss their blatant glee at the execution of a murderer. I'm not talking about the death penalty as merely a "self defense" issue - I've stated that in some cases (Hannibal Lector sorts), it may be the best alternative, in order to truly protect society from a deranged murderer who truly is an imminent danger to others at any given moment.
The blatant glee, the blatantly bloodthirsty element is the one I find so abhorrent - and one that is clearly evident to me, with it's roots in the history of Tower Hill, and beyond. We are not, as humans, far removed from this:
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But I say again, Kathy, the most callous attitudes I -- personally -- have ever seen are from those who oppose the death penalty to the point they are willing to accept the most brutal murders possible as a fair trade for eliminating it.
Wow. I RARELY come across this attitude, though it does exist. The former "Tower Hill Crowd" attitude is the one I see much more often. I guess we just disagree on this point, so perhaps we're at an impasse, since neither of our perspectives is "provable."
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Why do you say that, sis? Do you honestly think the "general public" would be supportive of the type of punishment that occurred in the Tower of London? I am not trying to be patronizing in the least (for one thing, I have no credentials to be), but c'mon, hon.
I am not saying that the general public would be supportive of drawing and quartering, or burning at the stake, that sort of thing. What I am saying is that I do think that many members of the general public are capable of the same element of celebration at the execution of a criminal.
For instance - these crowds were gathered for the sentencing part of the Jody Arias trial, and were chanting for the death penalty:
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Well, I confess I am really not sure what you are asking here. But if I read it right, I agree with what you seem to be saying here. If so, no question on that score! BUT...such is not the attitude of most average middle/working class people.
I don't have exact percentages, of course, of those who would truly celebrate the execution of another person, but I've personally heard and seen enough "average people" (see above, for example) express their absolute GLEE at the prospect of execution.
Let's take, for example, the heinous murderer, and in my opinion, terrorist, Nidal Hasan. (Keep in mind that I have three active duty military kids, and have myself lived on Fort Hood and probably been in the same building in which the shootings occurred - I've driven past it many times.) I have heard MANY of our most sane, average people speak VEHEMENTLY and fervently, and in great detail, of exactly how they would PERSONALLY love to kill him. (For the record, I don't want him to receive the death penalty - I want him to sit in that wheelchair in jail till the day he dies, miserable and alone.)
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Then actually it sounds like your answer to the poll question would be something like "Yes, however" or "No,but". Which I fully respect!
My actual answer is "I much prefer the option of life in prison without the possibility of parole, with the exception of murderers who cannot reasonably be kept from murdering or maiming others."
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And again, I could go along with that IF there was a guarantee there would be no escape, no possibility of parole, and would have to serve the hardest time possible. But can never be any such thing.
I think in many cases there can be just such a thing.
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1. First, many of those (not in the least saying you are one of them), who oppose the death penalty, actually -- on an ideological level -- oppose the whole concept of punishment at all. That is, they ostensibly support "life without parole" but not because they truly want it as an alternative. Rather, they see it as a "stalking horse" to eventually abolish capital punishment completely. Once that happens? They will seek to repeal "life without parole."
OK, once again - WOW. I have debated this topic with others for decades (and at one time I debated fervently in FAVOR of the death penalty, having only "switched sides" in the past decade or so), and I can honestly say I have NEVER met or heard or read ANYONE with this attitude. But you say you've witnessed it, so I'll take your word for it. I think it's safe to say, though, that this attitude is not prevalent in those who oppose the death penalty.
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2. It simply cannot be guaranteed that a person sentenced to life without parole will ever not escape/kill a guard/serve out the said sentence. Or that the law (see above) might not change to allow eventual release.
And I guess we may live in a communist country at some point - or that I may marry Prince Harry one day - or that you may move to New York City one day. But I think it's safe to say that the odds are not high on any of those points. I believe we have the capability to actually put people away for life without parole, and that they will actually serve out those life sentences without murdering again. I mean, it's ongoing as we speak.
Right now, the average time served in prison for life WITH the possibility of parole is 29 years. One in ten prisoners in our prison systems today are serving life sentences. That's about 132,000 prisoners. Twenty eight percent of that number (about 37,000) have no chance of parole. In Louisiana's Angola prison, for example, of the 5100 prisoners there, over 3000 of them are serving life without parole, and most of the remaining 2100 are serving sentences (ineligible for parole for many years) that would preclude them ever being released. Those on death row are kept under lock and key for 23 hours a day, and are given one hour a day to shower and walk up and down a highly guarded hallway or small strip of outdoor space (also highly guarded). They are allowed one five minute phone call per month. They are allowed to have several books in their cells at any given time. No television, no break rooms. And I think that's fine.
This is what you said when I brought up the disparity in which the death penalty is administered (disparity in both VICTIMS and CAPITAL MURDERERS):
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Oh c'mon Kathy. Please. You know damn well I am not making a case for any such thing as that. That is pure deflection and driving the discussion into a ditch. I expect better than that from you!
In my defense, I did NOT accuse you of making any sort of issue of race or gender. But that doesn't mean that I can't see or note the disparity - which I did. It bothers ME whether it bothers you or not.
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Again, my dear friend, please don't get holier than thou on all this. I don't care a lick if the murderer if black, white, Hispanic, or purple-polka dotted. The important point to me is simply this:
Is that person guilty of a capital crime or not? Do certain demographic segments of the population commit more capital crimes (per capita, proportionally), than others? If so, then it would only make sense that there might be a disproportionate application.
I am frankly surprised that you missed my point, which was NOT about the race of murderers, but in fact was about the race of MURDER VICTIMS. I even used the example of my own multiracial grandchildren as an example (not of murderers, obviously, but of potential murder victims), when I stated that the death penalty is MUCH more often applied to those who murder white people, than those who murder people of other races - and this disparity does bother me. White victims are not worth more "blood" than non white victims.
On Jesus and the woman who was about to be executed ("He who is guilty, cast the first stone" story):
You said:
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He also told her, go your way and sin no more. In other words, He didn't just negate the law and the punishment. Right?
His words disarmed the would-be executioners, and then He sent her on her way with the words, "Go, and sin no more." That's what we know. The rest is open to interpretation. But we definitely know that in this case (which is the only example I can think of in which Jesus addressed the death penalty), Jesus intervened, and the death penalty was not applied.
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As am I. But? Consider another point as well? The Constitution of our United States prohibits "cruel and unusual punishment". Which is as it should be. What lots of those links you provided are not -- IMHO -- a refutation of the concept of capital punishment itself, but, if taken in the whole scheme of things, the fact that what is punishable by the death penalty can change over the years. I have no problem with that.
No. My links were directly FROM THE BIBLE. The Old Testament law, to be specific. Not simply "history." My links were to show that IN OUR BIBLE, the killing of rebellious teens, adulterers, and those who do not obey the laws of the Jewish sabbath, was not only sanctioned - it was REQUIRED. Do we still do this today, as Christians, as those who claim to follow the creed laid out in the Bible? No. Why is that? For that matter, why don't we Christians worship on Saturday (starting on Friday night)? Why do we eat shellfish and pork? Why do we live as though we are freed from the letter of the Old Testament law?
I answered that question according to my own theological beliefs regarding the grace provided by the atonement of Jesus Christ, so I won't repeat myself.
As for what the New Testament says about the death penalty, YOU claimed that you believe the words of the New Testament support your belief in the death penalty. I asked you to provide biblical references from the New Testament which support this. I don't recall that you provided those references - can you please do so?
You asked me, however:
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Can you find any which prohibits it?
As far as I know, there are no passages in the New Testament which directly reference the death penalty - either for or against it - though there are many passages regarding the application of the death penalty to Jesus and the apostles and other Christian martyrs. (I wouldn't go so far as to say that those passages put the death penalty in a positive light, however!)
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What I can provide is that Jesus said clearly that he was not intending for His testament to destroy the "law" or the "prophets".
But you can't cherry pick, Reb! If you are going to justify the death penalty based on OT law, then you better start eschewing (rather than chewing ) pork, and you better start going to the synagogue on Friday nights.
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Also, I think this is important as well. When He was on the Cross, and there were other ones on each side of him? And the thief on one side asked Jesus to speak well of him, and Jesus replied along the lines of "This day you shall join me in Paradise.?
Well, the notable thing -- in human parlance? -- is that He saved his soul, not his ass!
Well, one big difference between Jesus and us is that, as a Christian, I believe that Jesus is, well, GOD. I would trust GOD to administer the death penalty much more than I would trust humans to do so.
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Oh hell, hon. As you say, this is just great friends jabbing and sparing and all. I luvs you to pieces! HUGS!
By the way, TexasReb - we're showin' 'em how it's done, aren't we? CIVIL DEBATE IN A MUTUALLY RESPECTFUL TONE AND A HALF WAY INTELLIGENT MANNER (my half - LOL, just kidding!) IS POSSIBLE.
LOL Well, not trying to be sarcastic here, but I don't know that anyone is really being shown anything by all this. In fact, it puts me somewhat in mind of two 'good ole boys' down at the end of the bar carrying on quite the never ending argument that takes them into closing time night after night. Hope I'm forgiven, I did call you 'good ole boys' and that should account for something, right?
And what can I say, Lord knows I've been guilty of it too and as long as everyone knows it's more or less BS and a way to pass time, or such as the case here, truly stating one's honest opinions, what harm comes of it? Absolutely none, except the Bible is being used somewhat loosely here and that isn't such a hotshot thing to do, IMO.
I'm not going to dive into this argument headfirst, by no means. I don't even want in it, so I'm just going to tippy toe on the edge here. My head is still spinning from all of it, so I'm going to try and pinpoint the parts about the bible that gave me pause. I am definitely not a biblical scholar or even all that knowledgeable, but Kathryn, you seem to be so. So what I am about to say and the one thing I do know is this: There are Jews (God's chosen people) and there are Gentiles. The Gentiles, many of whom have become Christians through the blood of Jesus Christ, do not follow the same religious customs or teachings as the Jews.
Anyway, this might help provide a partial answer to your quote, "My links were to show that IN OUR BIBLE, the killing of rebellious teens, adulterers, and those who do not obey the laws of the Jewish sabbath, was not only sanctioned - it was REQUIRED. Do we still do this today, as Christians, as those who claim to follow the creed laid out in the Bible? No. Why is that? For that matter, why don't we Christians worship on Saturday (starting on Friday night)? Why do we eat shellfish and pork? Why do we live as though we are freed from the letter of the Old Testament law?"
I do not claim to know much at all about the Jewish religion. Look at how much Christianity has changed over the years, and stoning to death of anyone, Jewish or Christian faith, is not practiced like it once was, but again, I'm no expert on religions, but I don't think in this day and age, Jews nor Christians are stoning anyone to death. All I can tell you, is, Christians do not follow Jewish teachings why don't we Christians worship on Saturday (starting on Friday night)? Why do we eat shellfish and pork? simply because they are not Jews.
"Well, one big difference between Jesus and us is that, as a Christian, I believe that Jesus is, well, GOD. I would trust GOD to administer the death penalty much more than I would trust humans to do so".
Actually Kathryn, Jesus is not God. God is the Almighty Father, Jesus is his son and the third member of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit.
Hope this helps clarify a few things on the biblical portion.
Last edited by lonestar2007; 08-27-2013 at 03:12 PM..
I'm not going to dive into this argument headfirst, by no means. I don't even want in it, so I'm just going to tippy toe on the edge here. My head is still spinning from all of it, so I'm going to try and pinpoint the parts about the bible that gave me pause. I am definitely not a biblical scholar or even all that knowledgeable, but Kathryn, you seem to be so.
Well, not hardly - but I HAVE studied the Christian faith in particular, and religions in general, on my own for most of my life - I find the theology to be very interesting.
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So what I am about to say and the one thing I do know is this: There are Jews (God's chosen people) and there are Gentiles. The Gentiles, many of whom have become Christians through the blood of Jesus Christ, do not follow the same religious customs or teachings as the Jews.
Not the same religious CUSTOMS per se (though Messianic Jews do to some extent, and you might be surprised at just how many Christian customs do stem directly from Jewish customs - take Easter for starters and go from there). However, many Christians will bandy about the OT law WHEN IT SUITS THEM as "God's word to us" but they wouldn't dream of applying the entirety of OT law to their lives. In other words, they cherry pick.
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Anyway, this might help provide a partial answer to your quote, "My links were to show that IN OUR BIBLE, the killing of rebellious teens, adulterers, and those who do not obey the laws of the Jewish sabbath, was not only sanctioned - it was REQUIRED. Do we still do this today, as Christians, as those who claim to follow the creed laid out in the Bible? No. Why is that? For that matter, why don't we Christians worship on Saturday (starting on Friday night)? Why do we eat shellfish and pork? Why do we live as though we are freed from the letter of the Old Testament law?"
Sorry, but no, it really doesn't provide a partial answer to ME - though it may to you or others. What I mean is that you and I may not agree on our particular viewpoints - but that's OK.
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I do not claim to know much at all about the Jewish religion. Look at how much Christianity has changed over the years, and stoning to death of anyone, Jewish or Christian faith, is not practiced like it once was, but again, I'm no expert on religions, but I don't think in this day and age, Jews nor Christians are stoning anyone to death. All I can tell you, is, Christians do not follow Jewish teachings why don't we Christians worship on Saturday (starting on Friday night)? Why do we eat shellfish and pork? simply because they are not Jews.
I agree - and that's why we fall into faulty application of biblical teachings when we cherry pick. That's why we can't use OT law as our standard (ie, justify capital punishment because it was mandated by God to the Jews in the OT) if we're not going to apply the rest of God's OT law to our lives.
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"Well, one big difference between Jesus and us is that, as a Christian, I believe that Jesus is, well, GOD. I would trust GOD to administer the death penalty much more than I would trust humans to do so".
Actually Kathryn, Jesus is not God. God is the Almighty Father, Jesus is his son and the third member of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit.
Oh, my - here we disagree - and you will also find yourself disagreeing with most mainstream Christian teachings on the Trinity as well. Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Church of England, Presbyterian, Episcopalians, Lutherans, etc etc etc ALL teach, as part of Trinitarian theology, that JESUS IS GOD. Personally, this is what I believe as well. You may not believe this - not sure what your religious beliefs are but Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, and some other smaller denominations, though they identify as Christian, do not teach or believe that Jesus is God. In fact, less that three percent of self proclaimed Christians belong to churches or denominations that teach that Jesus IS NOT God.
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Hope this helps clarify a few things on the biblical portion.
Yeah, me too.
I'll leave this for now with some passages from the New Testament regarding OT law and His grace - and this may explain how I believe that I, as a Christian, should apply OT teachings to my life, including the teachings on capital punishment:
Romans 2:25-29
For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
Matthew 9:10-13
And as Jesus reclined at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were reclining with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Matthew 12:1-14
12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.” He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.” He went on from there and entered their synagogue. And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse him. He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And the man stretched it out, and it was restored, healthy like the other. But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.
John 7:21-24
Jesus answered them, “I did one work, and you all marvel at it. Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man's whole body well? Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
John 8:2-11
Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”]]
Matthew 22:34-40
But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
Thanks, by the way, for your civil and thoughtful approach to the matter.
Last edited by KathrynAragon; 08-27-2013 at 03:44 PM..
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