Poll: Capital Punishment (Howe, Powell: 2013, dangerous, eat)

[TexasReb]

=Chicken_of_Bristol;31077727] If your message to criminals is that you're going to get the death penalty, then what's their incentive to hold back? They might as well kill everyone that even slightly gets in their way because, like you said, they "will fry" regardless. Sounds like a pretty perverse incentive to me.

Well, then what should the message be, CoB??? That no matter what they do, then they will get a walk because to punish appropriately might get them mad at us and/or cause them to kill more people?

I confess, I don't understand this approach nor the logic behind it.

And the numbers prove it. Despite executing people on an almost industrial scale, this state is not a low crime state. It actually is a fairly high crime state. So, your "message" is clearly not working.

The factor you are not taking into account is demographics. When this is figured in? Texas crime rates are not noteably higher than anywhere else. In fact, even lower in some areas...especially those which involve the subject of the thread. That is to say, "capital murder" type (although they may be known under another heading in some other states).

Anyway, thanks for civil and courteous responses and posts, even if there is disagreement!

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

You know I respect your always insightful and articulate opinions, KatA...but here is where we part company on this subject.

That is to say, yes, while our government (state, in this case) does have the power to impose a life without parole sentence, it does not have the power to assure that that those so sentenced will be guaranteed to never escape, or that the law could not be changed.

Ted Bundy is a classic example (although that was Florida). So is Kenneth McDuff (arguably the most revolting piece of shlit that ever came out of a Texas prison system).

So far as the giving and taking of life being up to God? I can agree with you on a loose theological level. However, my problem with your approach, though, KatA, is that God doesn't usually strike the bad guy down with lightning bolts.

Instead, He gave us the brains/capacity/capability/foresight to set up and evolve a criminal justice system based upon a set of Biblical moral principles, assuming we accept them. I don't know how else it could be. I mean, as brought up in another earlier post, if we are to leave it all up to God so far as taking a life goes? Then it would mean we couldn't use deadly force to defend ourselves or family. Or our military could not defend our country...

Yep, we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe that most people who support capital punishment (at least most that I've met personally) support it because it makes them feel better - they feel like the criminal deserves it.

Well, hell, all I can say is I pray that we don't ALL get exactly what we deserve in life or we're all probably in some trouble, if we're honest enough to be objective about it. Think about it.

But on to the life without parole deal - that's the perfect punishment to me. It's very, very possible to put someone in jail, securely, for life. COULD someone escape? Possibly. But COULD we put to death an innocent person? Possibly. I believe, in fact, that over the course of our judicial system in this country, we've probably put some innocent people to death.

When I say "life in prison without parole" I mean exactly that. No frills, no fun. Stark, unpleasant life behind bars till the day they die. Let them sit there and think about how they got there.

Self defense is a completely different matter to me, theologically by the way. I was only speaking of meting out justice via the death penalty - justice invoked and executed (figuratively and literally) by flawed humans and corrupt governments - when I said "Leave the taking of a life to God." I don't trust our government enough to give them the power to execute people.

[ctk0p7]

Good poll and conversations TexasReb. I knew as soon as it started I would be of minority opinion being opposed to the death penalty, but it was good to hear differening opinions. I was at one time a huge supporter of it until I realized that there were only disadvantages to it vs life in prison. I only liked it because I thought thats what they deserved. I give kudos to Kathryn for her always well thought out posts.

[lonestar2007]

I'm sure there will be those who like to see the death sentence carried out on a felon convicted on a vicious, heinous crime and regal in the fact that the dirty slime ball got the justice he deserved.

I agree that the death sentence is fair justice to the felons who have committed the ungodly, heinous acts of violence which earned them that sentence.

Do I jump up and down and clap my hands with glee. No, I don't. I do look at it like this. There are those amongst us who are beyond redemption and evil to the core and given the slightest opportunity will convey mayhem upon decent people and they are a highly dangerous cancer that the earth needs to be shed of.

Look at it this way, they're not even lovable creatures like Old Yeller, but they are in the same category as him after he became a danger to everyone and everything around him. They didn't want to kill Old Yeller, and we the audience sure didn't want Old Yeller to die, but he could not be allowed to live and endanger all the other living creatures around him. Sure, death is harsh, but there are circumstances that should never allow for anything less.

[ctk0p7]

Originally Posted by lonestar2007

I'm sure there will be those who like to see the death sentence carried out on a felon convicted on a vicious, heinous crime and regal in the fact that the dirty slime ball got the justice he deserved.

I agree that the death sentence is fair justice to the felons who have committed the ungodly, heinous acts of violence which earned them that sentence.

Do I jump up and down and clap my hands with glee. No, I don't. I do look at it like this. There are those amongst us who are beyond redemption and evil to the core and given the slightest opportunity will convey mayhem upon decent people and they are a highly dangerous cancer that the earth needs to be shed of.

Look at it this way, they're not even lovable creatures like Old Yeller, but they are in the same category as him after he became a danger to everyone and everything around him. They didn't want to kill Old Yeller, and we the audience sure didn't want Old Yeller to die, but he could not be allowed to live and endanger all the other living creatures around him. Sure, death is harsh, but there are circumstances that should never allow for anything less.

So are there any advantages for death over life in prison other than it makes you feel better?

[TexasHorseLady]

Originally Posted by ctk0p7

So are there any advantages for death over life in prison other than it makes you feel better?

Kenneth McDuff, for one.

If life in prison were really guaranteed to be life in prison, it might be different.

[losttechnician]

Nothing at all AGAINST the death penalty, but from a more vengeful part of my heart I support the "Life without the possibility of parole" option.

Forced to live a long time with all the rest of life passing a person by would likely be an enormous punishment for most folks. Pure PENALize, sans rehabilitation.

No hope for parole, no hope for normalcy, no hope for freedom. It would be my tax dollars supporting that punishment, but at least it would not be my tax dollars paying lawyers, and courtrooms for protracted legal fights over snuffing the scum's life.

Color me grumpy, mean, and vengeful if you choose, but I am also close-minded enough on this subject that you won't be able to change my mind.

[ctk0p7]

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

Kenneth McDuff, for one.

If life in prison were really guaranteed to be life in prison, it might be different.

Last time I check there was life in prison without parole.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

Yep, we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

You are right, Kathy, we will just have to agree to disagree on this one! And nothing wrong with that at all, Texas sis.

I believe that most people who support capital punishment (at least most that I've met personally) support it because it makes them feel better - they feel like the criminal deserves it.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Of course we feel like the criminal deserves it, else we wouldn't support it.

Do we feel better about ourselves? Well, if you mean that capital punishment provides a catharsis of sorts? Then yeah, I agree we do. But what is wrong with that? I will just as easily counter with that many of those who oppose capital punishment do so because they feel better about themselves as well. It is kind of a standoff, I suppose, in terms of just who has the moral high-ground....

Well, hell, all I can say is I pray that we don't ALL get exactly what we deserve in life or we're all probably in some trouble, if we're honest enough to be objective about it. Think about it.

Kathy? I DO think about it, believe it or not. God will likely kick me and a bakers dozen of those like me, in the ass for things we have done in this life. Yikes! But seriously (although it is) Don't you think that most of us do consider such as that? I don't mean any disrespect (which I hope you would know anyway *smiles), but some of this comes across as a bit -- just a bit, mind you --as slightly didactic.

But on to the life without parole deal - that's the perfect punishment to me. It's very, very possible to put someone in jail, securely, for life. COULD someone escape? Possibly.

Yes, it is entirely possible an innocent person could be executed. And I will even go so far as to say the law of averages might lend to that it has happened even in a modern day era. BUT, the innocent person should be named before stating with certainty is has happened.

When I say "life in prison without parole" I mean exactly that. No frills, no fun. Stark, unpleasant life behind bars till the day they die. Let them sit there and think about how they got there.

We definitely agree on that one. As I said earlier, I could be easily persuaded that such a sentence would actually be more in tune with "justice" (as I embrace it) than capital punishment. But the devil is in the details and the fact there is no guarantee is the glitch in the equation. It is a trade-off, and it will always be. However, as time goes on forensic science (especially DNA) is making it less and less likely that an innocent person will ever be executed.

With that said though, for those of us (if I may speak for some) who favor the death penalty? The most troubling thing is the thought of an innocent person being executed. There is no way I can disagree with that concern. On the flip side of the record? What about a Ted Bundy? What about a Kenneth McDuff? The numbers of innocent kids who died as a result of what those monsters did turns my stomach. I would consider it an honor to pull the switch on either of them.

Self defense is a completely different matter to me, theologically by the way. I was only speaking of meting out justice via the death penalty - justice invoked and executed (figuratively and literally) by flawed humans and corrupt governments - when I said "Leave the taking of a life to God." I don't trust our government enough to give them the power to execute people.

These days, I don't trust the government to do much of anything beyond exist and breed expotentially. If there is anything close to eternal life (as Reagan said) it is government! LOL

But seriously, IMO (and I know that amounts to about a penny in the pot! LOL) , the existence of capital punishment is not only sanctioned by the Bible, but is very much -- in macrocosm -- the overall moral justification for the principle of individual self-defense, itself. The difference is one protects the right of society to protect itself...the other protects the individual's right to do so.

[TexasHorseLady]

And yet McDuff got three death sentences that were commuted to life and STILL got out to murder some more. That's why I say "guaranteed".