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What? The Willowbend Mall in west Plano has been struggling for a long time, and even today it's not a luxury mall, it's a middle income mall. Additional housing in that area (wow, there's a pattern here) will move it upscale, but it wouldn't surprise me if instead of moving into the mall, the upscale stores move into sites next to Toyota in the Legacy West area. Which is where Telsa is going, for example. The mall itself admits as much, attempting to diversify by tearing down a long empty Saks Fifth Avenue store for a hotel.
BTW, the difference between Dallas and Houston is that Houston is adding boatloads of population in Houston-proper, while in the last decade Dallas-proper barely added any people. The metro area took all the growth, and shopping followed the rooftops north.
Dallas itself finally realized that was dumb, and are really turning it around since 2012 or so.
Sorry, understand that I am not arguing with you. I find this topic fascinating and want to acheive a depth of understanding of it. In its infancy, the Willowbend Mall did indeed go luxury big time. I am bullish on The Shops at Willow Bend because of its prime location. It took a punch to the gut and recovered nicely. Still, it has a legacy as a once luxury mall.
I got this info about its luxury legacy from Wiki. Proof of this once glorious past is the Neiman Marcus still anchoring it. Figure the Neimans is the reason for the 100 million upgrade now under way.
The population of the city center isn't the main market. Did you notice how the passenger traffic at Love Field jumped 85% in a single year? The single terminal at Love Field has almost acheived a quarter of the business that the five terminals at DFW are doing. Why? It is the attraction of all that legacy retail in Dallas. If Lemmon Avenue isn't the luxury car capital of the south, it soon will be.
Last edited by Yellow pool of piddle; 09-20-2016 at 11:17 PM..
In its infancy, the Willowbend Mall did indeed go luxury big time.
It did and it was smacked down. Burberry, Saks, and several others closed in the first year. That means that it wasn't a luxury mall even though it wanted to be. I agree it's location is good. It just needs more people around it. Texas governments somehow don't believe in the power of adjacency and are gobsmacked everytime it produces positive results.
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The population of the city center isn't the main market. Did you notice how the passenger traffic at Love Field jumped 85% in a single year?
I'm not sure these arguments jive. Love Field is near the downtown city center. DFW is out in BFE. Love had government restrictions to limit traffic that were lifted. It's attracting business travelers to the largest business corridor in DFW, downtown Dallas. Business travelers don't like to fly to BFE to drive 30 miles back downtown since their time is money. Seems simple to me.
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If Lemmon Avenue isn't the luxury car capital of the south, it soon will be.
Florida is the luxury car capital of the south - like 12% to Texas' 7%. If we break that down, then most of the purchasers are in South Beach Miami (60%) in Florida and probably split in Texas between DFW 40%, Houston 40%, Austin 20%. Maybe Lemmon Ave will become the luxury car capital of the south, but it has tough competition from A1A Beachfront Avenue.
Last edited by TheOverdog; 09-21-2016 at 10:57 AM..
It did and it was smacked down. Burberry, Saks, and several others closed in the first year. That means that it wasn't a luxury mall even though it wanted to be. I agree it's location is good. It just needs more people around it. Texas governments somehow don't believe in the power of adjacency and are gobsmacked everytime it produces positive results.
I'm not sure these arguments jive. Love Field is near the downtown city center. DFW is out in BFE. Love had government restrictions to limit traffic that were lifted. It's attracting business travelers to the largest business corridor in DFW, downtown Dallas. Business travelers don't like to fly to BFE to drive 30 miles back downtown since their time is money. Seems simple to me.
Florida is the luxury car capital of the south - like 12% to Texas' 7%. If we break that down, then most of the purchasers are in South Beach Miami (60%) in Florida and probably split in Texas between DFW 40%, Houston 40%, Austin 20%. Maybe Lemmon Ave will become the luxury car capital of the south, but it has tough competition from A1A Beachfront Avenue.
I said that Willowbend was a luxury mall in its infancy. Having a Neiman Marcus, a Lord & Taylor and a Saks Fifth Avenue in one place is nothing to sneeze at. Once a shopping center goes luxury, it establishes a legacy past. Similar shopping centers are The Miracle Mile and The Plaza at Preston Center which are both located in University Park.
Lemmon Avenue has become the place to fly into by way of Love Field airport in order to buy a luxury vehicle. I didn't mean the overall market, but just the most significant corridore pertaining to its convenient location to Love Field and numbers of dealerships in one place.
When they built all those tall office buildings in downtown, they never came. We are talking thirty years of a downtiwn office market maintaining an office vacancy of 25% or greater. It should be common knowledge that all that legacy retail in central Dallas is a huge draw. Once Dallas mucks that up, there won't be anything left.
Once a shopping center goes luxury, it establishes a legacy past
I guess? I mean, almost every shopping center north of a big box store starts out as luxury, because 'luxury' really just means 'new'. Most of the stores mentioned aren't there anymore. One of the hallmarks of luxury is age - doing quality business for a long time. Willowbend doesn't meet that criteria.
And car dealerships cluster. Big whoop. When Land Rover and Lamborghini move there from Central Expressway, I'll be convinced.
Yeah, 'they' never came because nobody lived there. What place builds their neighborhood around people hanging around for an hour on their lunch? Aren't you supposed to be in your big office working the rest of the time? Failed places, that's where. You'll see a serious downtown resurgence as people move in. I'd bet that luxury follows. A big name will build a luxury store in downtown or Victory Park in 5 years or less I'll bet.
It did and it was smacked down. Burberry, Saks, and several others closed in the first year. That means that it wasn't a luxury mall even though it wanted to be. I agree it's location is good. It just needs more people around it. Texas governments somehow don't believe in the power of adjacency and are gobsmacked everytime it produces positive results.
West Oaks Mall was a good example. It had Saks and Lord & Taylor (which was also a luxurious chain at the time).
BTW I was listening to Texas Standard on NPR this afternoon while driving and one of today's topics was Houston and it's lack of (a formal) zoning (code). They pointed out the hazardous industrial sites since they are now the talk of the town after the April fire.
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I'm not sure these arguments jive. Love Field is near the downtown city center. DFW is out in BFE. Love had government restrictions to limit traffic that were lifted. It's attracting business travelers to the largest business corridor in DFW, downtown Dallas. Business travelers don't like to fly to BFE to drive 30 miles back downtown since their time is money. Seems simple to me.
Well no celebrity would not get caught dead at any L.A. area airport except LAX (and Santa Monica for private jets). Talk about cachet!
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Originally Posted by Yellow pool of piddle
I said that Willowbend was a luxury mall in its infancy. Having a Neiman Marcus, a Lord & Taylor and a Saks Fifth Avenue in one place is nothing to sneeze at. Once a shopping center goes luxury, it establishes a legacy past.
Going back to my West Oaks Mall example, it looks like the legacy is not helping it. Too many people have forgotten and that The Galleria has overshadowed any attempts in luxury retail (in Houston). Memorial City comes close (almost attempting to stage a coup), but it seems they only found their strength in catering to the affluent middle-market, upper/middle-middle class suburban consumer. Katy doesn't even have their own mall because the drawing power is too strong!
I'm not sure I really agree with your logic but respect your right to express it. The reality of today is that Houston is getting luxury retail that Dallas isn't, and they're keeping luxury retail Dallas is losing. I'm not sure why that is. Even with an expansion of Highland Park Village or NorthPark, I doubt we're going to get back the luxury retailers we've lost any time soon. It just seems to me that Houston is getting more luxury retail and has shown a better ability to maintain what luxury retail they have.
I disagree that Dallas is behind Houston re: luxury retailers. The two big ones who recently failed in Dallas were Barneys and Saks. To understand why they failed, you have to understand the dynamics at play in Dallas:
1. This is Neiman's hometown. The traditional society ladies who propel Neiman's NorthPark to be by far the #1 volume store in the chain are LOYAL. Loyal to Neiman's and loyal to their long-time sales associates. In turn, Neiman's is enormously loyal to the charities these women support, hosting events and making donations. Saks plays in the same space as Neiman's....the Galleria assortments were not bad, but Saks didn't aggressively try to pursue the relationships with the top potential customers or their charities.
2. We have two local powerhouse retailers here that don't have any equivalent in Houston. Stanley Korshak is the Neiman's customers #2 score. Crawford Brock and his team have the relationships with the Dallas women, support their charities, and have a beautiful ability to curate top luxury brands. Customer service is better than at Neiman's, IMO. Korshak is just one more reason Saks failed. Then there is Forty-Five Ten who assists a much more fashion-forward store with directional brands. Brian Bolke and the late Shelly Mussleman are adored by the Dallas elite- again, those relationships and charity support are key and Brian gets it! FFT's brand matrix is right in Barney's arena with major statements from Alaia, Marni, Dior, Dries, etc front & forward. Dallas women are loyal and the ones who would have been top Barneys customers prefer FFT.
I disagree that Dallas is behind Houston re: luxury retailers. The two big ones who recently failed in Dallas were Barneys and Saks. To understand why they failed, you have to understand the dynamics at play in Dallas:
1. This is Neiman's hometown. The traditional society ladies who propel Neiman's NorthPark to be by far the #1 volume store in the chain are LOYAL. Loyal to Neiman's and loyal to their long-time sales associates. In turn, Neiman's is enormously loyal to the charities these women support, hosting events and making donations. Saks plays in the same space as Neiman's....the Galleria assortments were not bad, but Saks didn't aggressively try to pursue the relationships with the top potential customers or their charities.
2. We have two local powerhouse retailers here that don't have any equivalent in Houston. Stanley Korshak is the Neiman's customers #2 score. Crawford Brock and his team have the relationships with the Dallas women, support their charities, and have a beautiful ability to curate top luxury brands. Customer service is better than at Neiman's, IMO. Korshak is just one more reason Saks failed. Then there is Forty-Five Ten who assists a much more fashion-forward store with directional brands. Brian Bolke and the late Shelly Mussleman are adored by the Dallas elite- again, those relationships and charity support are key and Brian gets it! FFT's brand matrix is right in Barney's arena with major statements from Alaia, Marni, Dior, Dries, etc front & forward. Dallas women are loyal and the ones who would have been top Barneys customers prefer FFT.
To expound on your point, the Houston Galleria / Uptown retail area today doesn't come close to comparing to the mecca of retail that once developed during the early, mid, and late eighties in North Dallas. That area included the Dallas Galleria, the North Dallas Design District to its west, the Valley View Mall to its east, a shopping center called Sakowitz Village a mile and a half to the north, and Prestonwood Town Center acoss Beltline Road from it.
What I find incredible is how a lot of that luxury retail, after going defunct, then moved further north to the Shops at Willow Bend (what it is being called now).
As once happened in North Dallas, a similar monstrous amount of retail is now being developed in the Plano / Frisco area. North Texas retail is quite dynamic and extremely competetive to the extent of experiencing blood baths.
West Oaks Mall was a good example. It had Saks and Lord & Taylor (which was also a luxurious chain at the time).
BTW I was listening to Texas Standard on NPR this afternoon while driving and one of today's topics was Houston and it's lack of (a formal) zoning (code). They pointed out the hazardous industrial sites since they are now the talk of the town after the April fire.
Well no celebrity would not get caught dead at any L.A. area airport except LAX (and Santa Monica for private jets). Talk about cachet!
Going back to my West Oaks Mall example, it looks like the legacy is not helping it. Too many people have forgotten and that The Galleria has overshadowed any attempts in luxury retail (in Houston). Memorial City comes close (almost attempting to stage a coup), but it seems they only found their strength in catering to the affluent middle-market, upper/middle-middle class suburban consumer. Katy doesn't even have their own mall because the drawing power is too strong!
Memorial city is an example of a legacy mall. Though the shops at Willow Bend suffered at first, it was never a run of the mill mall. There are four Neiman Marcus stores in North Texas and this pretty mall has one. That is a great anchor to build on. I think the shops at Willow Bend has lots of potenti and will at least be equal in status to the Galleria Dallas.
Memorial city is an example of a legacy mall. Though the shops at Willow Bend suffered at first, it was never a run of the mill mall. There are four Neiman Marcus stores in North Texas and this pretty mall has one. That is a great anchor to build on. I think the shops at Willow Bend has lots of potenti and will at least be equal in status to the Galleria Dallas.
West Oaks was close to having the 5th legacy Macy's (pre-bankruptcy/pre-Federated) in Houston until the oil bust happened. It was delayed for a few years and then it was canceled. The Dillard's (now a clearance center) was eventually built on that site and was the first purpose-built Dillard's store in Houston.
But when you have the 2nd/3rd Saks in Houston (albeit a small-one), it's definitely a luxury mall. Memorial was barely a luxury mall, on the decumanus the Lord & Taylor was pretty small, and the Foley's was only one-story with Sears and Montgomery Ward on opposite ends of the cardo. But nearby Town & Country had the only second NM Houston has ever seen and a Saks, which made it Memorial's luxury mall.
Honestly everyone has overlooked Stonebriar Centre. It is in the geographic center of the northern sprawl centered on Legacy that outsiders call "Dallas" instead of the decrepit center city. With Sears collapsing, who knows that a repeat of Nordstrom in The Woodlands may happen here? Neiman's or Saks would be able to move into the old Sears site (after demolition and reconstruction) in a few years. There already is a Nordstrom in this mall, so why not a Neiman's?
Saks may come back to Dallas, if they can get into NorthPark instead.
West Oaks was close to having the 5th legacy Macy's (pre-bankruptcy/pre-Federated) in Houston until the oil bust happened. It was delayed for a few years and then it was canceled. The Dillard's (now a clearance center) was eventually built on that site and was the first purpose-built Dillard's store in Houston.
But when you have the 2nd/3rd Saks in Houston (albeit a small-one), it's definitely a luxury mall. Memorial was barely a luxury mall, on the decumanus the Lord & Taylor was pretty small, and the Foley's was only one-story with Sears and Montgomery Ward on opposite ends of the cardo. But nearby Town & Country had the only second NM Houston has ever seen and a Saks, which made it Memorial's luxury mall.
Honestly everyone has overlooked Stonebriar Centre. It is in the geographic center of the northern sprawl centered on Legacy that outsiders call "Dallas" instead of the decrepit center city. With Sears collapsing, who knows that a repeat of Nordstrom in The Woodlands may happen here? Neiman's or Saks would be able to move into the old Sears site (after demolition and reconstruction) in a few years. There already is a Nordstrom in this mall, so why not a Neiman's?
Saks may come back to Dallas, if they can get into NorthPark instead.
If Stonebriar gets a Neimans, I think it will relocate from the Shops at Willow Bend. The previous poster mentioned the incredible competition in Dallas keeping such luxury stores as Saks and Bloomingdales out of the market. It is interesting how Nordsroms has managed to saturate the area.
I think a major difference between Houston and Dallas is the type of luxury in the two. A lot of the luxury in Dallas is home grown. In Houston, most of it is imported. In Dallas, the imported luxury is sold mixed in with lots of regional home grown luxury. The determination of scale for that luxury is show cased at the Dallas Market Center, the Dallas Design District, the many arts districts, and so on.
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