Big day today in Texas (West, Howe: live, military, legally)

[TamaraSavannah]

Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost

As I posted earlier, the most credible study on this issue found that there is no evidence that open carry reduces shootings. This sort of armchair conjecture doesn't seem too useful.

I was rather thinking of the Israeli layered defense in a city.

That is, there is a soldier/police without the magazine in their rifle, an easy target. The catch is, around the corner there are other soldiers. They are going to hear the shooting, insert their loaded magazines and come running. Around another corner, there are more soldiers who are going to hear the shooting, insert....etc, etc, etc.

[Sunderpig2]

The Open Carry folks speak loudly and usually get their way from legislators. But how about the larger majority of people who aren't interested in guns, and deserve to have "freedom from open carry" and freedom from seeing guns all around the d@mn place? The quieter, more intelligent, and more traditionally Texas community always gets ignored by the worseless lawmakers these days. The newer, psycho, foaming-at-the mouth types who've been bred in the state now get their full attention.

Besides of all that, the Open Carry folks will never be satisfied, and will keep pushing for more compromises. "Open Carry" will soon mean carrying around a cocked and ready gun in their hands. Welcome to Beirut, TX.

This is more like Sad Day in Texas. I remember how different the state was 30, 40, 50 years ago. It's barely even recognizable these days. Instead of Lone Star State, it's more like Fallen Star State.

[Midessan]

Originally Posted by Sunderpig2

The Open Carry folks speak loudly and usually get their way from legislators. But how about the larger majority of people who aren't interested in guns, and deserve to have "freedom from open carry" and freedom from seeing guns all around the d@mn place?

Anyone who doesn't want open carry on their property can post a 30.07 sign.

[Sunderpig2]

Originally Posted by Midessan

Anyone who doesn't want open carry on their property can post a 30.07 sign.

Yeah, but even that puts an extra burden and hassle on businesses. The burden for this mess gets put on people who shouldn't have to (business owners, and the general public that does not want to see guns out in the open by people other than the trained police). Posting the signs just adds more hostility, and the business owners are now caught in the crossfire (no pun intended) of two different opinions/approaches. The dummies in legislature never look at the new issues and problems they create. It's more like "Bam! Here's your legislation. Now go and deal with it". Nice.

Open carry also makes a mockery to some degree of the extensive training that police forces take, and that any old joe is now somehow equivalent to the professionally-trained. There is a reason why professional law enforcement has such extensive training, with much of it focusing on mental/psychological factors (which the open carriers don't receive). Leaving that out is a serious mistake, and will make some riskier and more dangerous than pre-open carry.

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Originally Posted by Sunderpig2

The Open Carry folks speak loudly and usually get their way from legislators. But how about the larger majority of people who aren't interested in guns, and deserve to have "freedom from open carry" and freedom from seeing guns all around the d@mn place? The quieter, more intelligent, and more traditionally Texas community always gets ignored by the worseless lawmakers these days. The newer, psycho, foaming-at-the mouth types who've been bred in the state now get their full attention.

Besides of all that, the Open Carry folks will never be satisfied, and will keep pushing for more compromises. "Open Carry" will soon mean carrying around a cocked and ready gun in their hands. Welcome to Beirut, TX.

This is more like Sad Day in Texas. I remember how different the state was 30, 40, 50 years ago. It's barely even recognizable these days. Instead of Lone Star State, it's more like Fallen Star State.

You sound fairly upset, it's causing you to make some false and ignorant statements. Have you considered yoga?

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Originally Posted by Sunderpig2

Yeah, but even that puts an extra burden and hassle on businesses. The burden for this mess gets put on people who shouldn't have to (business owners, and the general public that does not want to see guns out in the open by people other than the trained police). Posting the signs just adds more hostility, and the business owners are now caught in the crossfire (no pun intended) of two different opinions/approaches. The dummies in legislature never look at the new issues and problems they create. It's more like "Bam! Here's your legislation. Now go and deal with it". Nice.

Open carry also makes a mockery to some degree of the extensive training that police forces take, and that any old joe is now somehow equivalent to the professionally-trained. There is a reason why professional law enforcement has such extensive training, with much of it focusing on mental/psychological factors (which the open carriers don't receive). Leaving that out is a serious mistake, and will make some riskier and more dangerous than pre-open carry.

There is no mess, the only people who have an issue with this are those who have irrational fears of inanimate objects in public. FYI - Open carry is only legal to those of us who have passed the TX concealed handgun training class, a state administered range test and a federal criminal background check.

[Midessan]

Originally Posted by Sunderpig2

Yeah, but even that puts an extra burden and hassle on businesses. The burden for this mess gets put on people who shouldn't have to (business owners, and the general public that does not want to see guns out in the open by people other than the trained police). Posting the signs just adds more hostility, and the business owners are now caught in the crossfire (no pun intended) of two different opinions/approaches. The dummies in legislature never look at the new issues and problems they create. It's more like "Bam! Here's your legislation. Now go and deal with it". Nice.

Open carry also makes a mockery to some degree of the extensive training that police forces take, and that any old joe is now somehow equivalent to the professionally-trained. There is a reason why professional law enforcement has such extensive training, with much of it focusing on mental/psychological factors (which the open carriers don't receive). Leaving that out is a serious mistake, and will make some riskier and more dangerous than pre-open carry.

Well, the government puts lots of burdens on people and businesses, I am sure you will manage.

[LeagleEagleDFW]

Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow

There is no mess, the only people who have an issue with this are those who have irrational fears of inanimate objects in public.

It's not irrational to be afraid of a bunch of rednecks who think that being able to carry a loaded weapon strapped to their body out in the open in public somehow makes them more a man. Guns are not simply an "inanimate object." They serve one purpose - to kill. That's it. There's a world of difference between someone carrying a gun and someone carrying a screwdriver.

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by LeagleEagleDFW

It's not irrational to be afraid of a bunch of rednecks who think that being able to carry a loaded weapon strapped to their body out in the open in public somehow makes them more a man. Guns are not simply an "inanimate object." They serve one purpose - to kill. That's it. There's a world of difference between someone carrying a gun and someone carrying a screwdriver.

I'm sure your screwdriver-fu is superior to mine, so I suppose carrying a screwdriver would work well for you in the gravest extreme.

Most gun-carry advocates prefer to meet the "Guns serve one purpose - to kill" argument (apparently the last-ditch volley of their anti-gun opponents) with all the ways guns are used that don't involve killing.

But that's a weak and evasive counter-argument. We don't carry the guns designed for target shooting, nor do we load them with ammunition designed for target shooting. All guns are not for killing, but the guns we carry are.

I've had enough guns pointed at me in anger to know I'm not Jason Bourne, and I've played gun games with enough SEALs and Air Force ParaRescue to know I'm not one of them, either. The only thing a gun gives me in the gravest extreme is an option to cringing on my knees and pleading, "Please don't kill me."

The honest answer to "Guns serve one purpose - to kill" is: "In the gravest extreme...some folk need killing."

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by Sunderpig2

Yeah, but even that puts an extra burden and hassle on businesses. The burden for this mess gets put on people who shouldn't have to (business owners, and the general public that does not want to see guns out in the open by people other than the trained police). Posting the signs just adds more hostility, and the business owners are now caught in the crossfire (no pun intended) of two different opinions/approaches. The dummies in legislature never look at the new issues and problems they create. It's more like "Bam! Here's your legislation. Now go and deal with it". Nice.

Yes, the 30.06 and 30.07 signs are rather ugly and unwelcoming right at the spot that a business would want to be its most lovely and welcoming. OTOH, they may be very lovely and welcoming to those people who want to be sure to patronize only those locations that are "gun-free." Kind of like the "whites only" signs I used to see when I was young--ugly to me but very welcoming to those who wanted to be sure they wouldn't be around any black people.

So those signs work both ways.

Open carry also makes a mockery to some degree of the extensive training that police forces take, and that any old joe is now somehow equivalent to the professionally-trained. There is a reason why professional law enforcement has such extensive training, with much of it focusing on mental/psychological factors (which the open carriers don't receive). Leaving that out is a serious mistake, and will make some riskier and more dangerous than pre-open carry.

The problem there, of course, is that criminals seldom act while a police officer is present and observing. And police officers--particularly the ones responding to my 911 call-- do not necessarily have "such extensive training." I get in a lot more range time than a lot (if not the majority) of police officers, and I've also had professional training.