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Thread summary:

Texas shoot in defense law opinions, Georgia law passed, right of self defense protected, Texas resident, defense of property, burglars donít mess with Texas

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Old 02-25-2008, 08:51 AM
 
Location: East Texas, with the Clan of the Cave Bear
1,605 posts, read 2,628,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lisak64 View Post
Well since there are still home robberies in Texas, it seems the gun laws aren't working since people are still making decisions to risk their lives for whatever they can steal. I saw his attorney on television and he said that his client was scared for his safety. He has to prove that he was scared for his life. He will be found guilty if he shot to protect his neighbor's belongings. The law does not cover that. It covers the protection of your own home and safety. It's not as if he saw his neighbor at gunpoint. He wasn't protecting anyone - except for maybe himself. But seeing that he was on the phone with 911 and they instructed him many times to remain his home, I don't know if he was even doing that.


Many points to remake on this!

#1. Yes there are still people stealing and pulling stoopid acts ... 2 things, first ... rats are still breeding and do I stop squashing them ... nope! second ... took us Texans almost 100 years to stop the Commanches from raiding so evaluation of methods to quash this new breed of raiders is a bit early .

#2. OK, lets see, oh yeah, his attorney says what is needed to get his client off (this is simple) ... kinda like "if the glove doesn't fit you must acquit" type thing. Its just the neccessary catch phrase.


#3. Now, ... "He will be found guilty if he shot to protect his neighbor's belongings."
Dang, where can I get one of them crystal balls ... you know, the ones that actually are accurate! I think the actual determination is that is up to 12 of his peers ... "peers" being the focus on that point!


#4. " ... he was on the phone with 911 and they instructed him many times to remain his home, I don't know if he was even doing that."

Does a telephone operator have any authority to order/command the public? You and I know they don't ... to reverse your theory then if the operator had told him to shoot the scum then we wouldn't even be having this discussion because it would have been "OK"!




The "in fear of his life" statement is the key to his defense I would think.

Although the "they needed killin" defense might work too!
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:07 AM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
397 posts, read 616,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTex View Post
Many points to remake on this!

#1. Yes there are still people stealing and pulling stoopid acts ... 2 things, first ... rats are still breeding and do I stop squashing them ... nope! second ... took us Texans almost 100 years to stop the Commanches from raiding so evaluation of methods to quash this new breed of raiders is a bit early .

#2. OK, lets see, oh yeah, his attorney says what is needed to get his client off (this is simple) ... kinda like "if the glove doesn't fit you must acquit" type thing. Its just the neccessary catch phrase.


#3. Now, ... "He will be found guilty if he shot to protect his neighbor's belongings."
Dang, where can I get one of them crystal balls ... you know, the ones that actually are accurate! I think the actual determination is that is up to 12 of his peers ... "peers" being the focus on that point!


#4. " ... he was on the phone with 911 and they instructed him many times to remain his home, I don't know if he was even doing that."

Does a telephone operator have any authority to order/command the public? You and I know they don't ... to reverse your theory then if the operator had told him to shoot the scum then we wouldn't even be having this discussion because it would have been "OK"!




The "in fear of his life" statement is the key to his defense I would think.

Although the "they needed killin" defense might work too!
You and I may disagree about whether he should be allowed to shoot to protect his neighbor's property. [note: property, because we do agree (I think) on being able to protect his neighbor] However, please do not even try to argue that the guy was "in fear for his life." If he remained in his own house, called the police, and the criminal was at his neighbor's, no rational person would conclude that.
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Old 02-25-2008, 11:58 AM
 
415 posts, read 1,157,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_SDCA View Post
You and I may disagree about whether he should be allowed to shoot to protect his neighbor's property. [note: property, because we do agree (I think) on being able to protect his neighbor] However, please do not even try to argue that the guy was "in fear for his life." If he remained in his own house, called the police, and the criminal was at his neighbor's, no rational person would conclude that.
It's legal, so where's the problem?

And I think I might be afraid of someone who broke into my neighbor's home. Not sure I'd go after them, but it's much easier to make decisions like that sitting in my nice, bright, stress-free office without adrenaline pumping through my veins. I also wouldn't use self-defense as a legal defense in that case, anyway, since it is legal to use deadly force if there's not a reasonable expectation of recovering the property by other means.

I do find it really hard to muster any sympathy for the guy blatantly breaking the law, though.
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Old 02-25-2008, 12:39 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
397 posts, read 616,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeLaura View Post
It's legal, so where's the problem?

And I think I might be afraid of someone who broke into my neighbor's home. Not sure I'd go after them, but it's much easier to make decisions like that sitting in my nice, bright, stress-free office without adrenaline pumping through my veins. I also wouldn't use self-defense as a legal defense in that case, anyway, since it is legal to use deadly force if there's not a reasonable expectation of recovering the property by other means.

I do find it really hard to muster any sympathy for the guy blatantly breaking the law, though.
Laura:

You make my point exactly. Please note that I do not really want to get into the argument about defense of property/property of others again. I have expressed my views about that before (which disagree with you and TexReb etc., but that is something we all just have to agree to disagree on - it is a matter of different philosophies/policies.)

Therefore, regardless of what I think about TX law about defense of property, TX law allows for it. Since that is the case, the best argument would be "defense of property" with no other means of recovery. I think it is ludicrous to argue that he feared for his life, absent more facts. [One can certainly imagine a hypothetical where that might be the case e.g. that the robber/attacker was coming to his house, tried to enter his yard etc.] Under no jurisdiction's law, including Texas's, is the definition of fear for life or limb THAT BROAD.
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Old 02-26-2008, 09:17 AM
 
415 posts, read 1,157,924 times
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Gretchen,
I haven't read about this particular man's situation, so I don't know if he is actually using the self-defense argument or if someone in this thread cooked that up. It is quite pointless to argue that he should or shouldn't use that defense, if he's not actually using it.

There are a lot of laws I agree with, in theory, but wouldn't necessarily take advantage of. I cried for hours when a bird flew into my windshield, so I wouldn't take someone's life lightly. If it comes down to self-defense, I'm not hesitating. Property? Not so much. But I strongly believe that it's wrong to take someone else's things and that you should bear the consequences of your actions. If that means you get shot stealing something, well, it's as easy as don't steal in the first place.
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Old 02-26-2008, 11:20 AM
 
1,854 posts, read 2,527,756 times
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There are many factors to be considered here. For starters, it's not as simple as saying is a TV set worth taking a human life over. When a lowlife piece of crap riffraff makes the decision to break into a person home's in order to steal that person's belongings that they have worked and save to get, they have exposed themselves to the consequences of their actions. Of course you have the right to use deadly force to protect yourself and your belongings. This vermin might have just broken into your home to steal your belongings, but if something goes wrong and you happen to be the element of surprise, they will kill you in a heartbeat.

If you are not at home would you want your neighbor, who happened to be at home, to intervene in the event your hoime was being broken into? Do you think it might be appropriate if you in turn did the same for your neighbor? Who's to say when you will be the next victim?

Let's say you do see your neighbor's home being broken into and you call the cops, but you realize the theives are going to be long gone before the cops can get there. What do you do? Hide behind your door and hope the cops get there in time, even though you know they won't, or will you try to protect your neighbor's property since you are right there at the scene of the crime taking place at that very moment? What would you want your neighbor to do if the situation were reversed?

To have a lowlife degenerate break into your home has a far more reaching aftermath than losing a TV set, etc.. Not only does the law abiding homeowner suffer the loss of the material things, it goes much deeper than that. They lose their sense of security. How do you put a price on that? Imagine someone just entering your home, going through your personal effects. That's right, open a drawer where you have your personal things and know some stranger was just hours earlier rummaging through it, deciding what he wanted to take and what he was going to leave for you to keep. It is a feeling of violation that goes beyond just losing a TV or maybe a heirloom ring that means more in memories than monetary value. If law abiding citizens are not allowed to feel safe in their own homes, this country's in serious shape.

I'm proud to be a Texan and I'm proud to defend my home and my neighbors home from lowlife trash that would like nothing bettter than to turn this entire country into some some third world state of affairs country. I think the days of being able to stay back and hover in a corner and wait on someone to come and protect you are over. Although it might not be pleasant, you had better learn to stand up and protect what is yours, or you won't be having it for long. I will shoot a varmint breaking into my home same as I'll shoot a coyote or fox trying to steal one of my chickens. A varmint is a varmint, I'll make no distinctions as to whether they are two-legged or four-legged. Furthermore, I'll not apologize for my remarks if they sound too harsh or they offend someone. Nor would I apologize to anyone if I did indeed have to shoot some lowlife piece of scum breaking into my home. As for all of the crime that is running rampant in our country, I, for one, am sick of hearing about it, reading about it and watching it daily on the television.
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Old 02-26-2008, 04:04 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
397 posts, read 616,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonestar2007 View Post
There are many factors to be considered here. For starters, it's not as simple as saying is a TV set worth taking a human life over. When a lowlife piece of crap riffraff makes the decision to break into a person home's in order to steal that person's belongings that they have worked and save to get, they have exposed themselves to the consequences of their actions. Of course you have the right to use deadly force to protect yourself and your belongings. This vermin might have just broken into your home to steal your belongings, but if something goes wrong and you happen to be the element of surprise, they will kill you in a heartbeat.

If you are not at home would you want your neighbor, who happened to be at home, to intervene in the event your hoime was being broken into? Do you think it might be appropriate if you in turn did the same for your neighbor? Who's to say when you will be the next victim?

Let's say you do see your neighbor's home being broken into and you call the cops, but you realize the theives are going to be long gone before the cops can get there. What do you do? Hide behind your door and hope the cops get there in time, even though you know they won't, or will you try to protect your neighbor's property since you are right there at the scene of the crime taking place at that very moment? What would you want your neighbor to do if the situation were reversed?

To have a lowlife degenerate break into your home has a far more reaching aftermath than losing a TV set, etc.. Not only does the law abiding homeowner suffer the loss of the material things, it goes much deeper than that. They lose their sense of security. How do you put a price on that? Imagine someone just entering your home, going through your personal effects. That's right, open a drawer where you have your personal things and know some stranger was just hours earlier rummaging through it, deciding what he wanted to take and what he was going to leave for you to keep. It is a feeling of violation that goes beyond just losing a TV or maybe a heirloom ring that means more in memories than monetary value. If law abiding citizens are not allowed to feel safe in their own homes, this country's in serious shape.

I'm proud to be a Texan and I'm proud to defend my home and my neighbors home from lowlife trash that would like nothing bettter than to turn this entire country into some some third world state of affairs country. I think the days of being able to stay back and hover in a corner and wait on someone to come and protect you are over. Although it might not be pleasant, you had better learn to stand up and protect what is yours, or you won't be having it for long. I will shoot a varmint breaking into my home same as I'll shoot a coyote or fox trying to steal one of my chickens. A varmint is a varmint, I'll make no distinctions as to whether they are two-legged or four-legged. Furthermore, I'll not apologize for my remarks if they sound too harsh or they offend someone. Nor would I apologize to anyone if I did indeed have to shoot some lowlife piece of scum breaking into my home. As for all of the crime that is running rampant in our country, I, for one, am sick of hearing about it, reading about it and watching it daily on the television.
I don't know if you are writing in response to me, but I think I have made it very clear that I am not entering another debate on this issue. In a previous thread, I think I have made it very clear why I do not agree with using deadly force in defense of property/property of others, and why most jurisdictions do not allow it. You and I disagree, and we will leave it at that.

My only response to this thread was that I think arguing that the neighbor was "in fear for his life" is a ridiculous argument to make, given that he was in the safety of his own home with no indication of the criminal heading in his direction. Since TX allows defense of property of others, surely his best argument would be under that theory.
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Old 02-26-2008, 06:43 PM
 
1,854 posts, read 2,527,756 times
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No, I'm not responding to you or to anyone else's views. This is my own personal stance on the matter, not an opening for debate. It would be a very boring world if we all thought alike.
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Old 02-26-2008, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Trans-Pecos Texas
8,618 posts, read 11,834,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonestar2007 View Post
......

I'm proud to be a Texan and I'm proud to defend my home and my neighbors home from lowlife trash that would like nothing bettter than to turn this entire country into some some third world state of affairs country. I think the days of being able to stay back and hover in a corner and wait on someone to come and protect you are over. Although it might not be pleasant, you had better learn to stand up and protect what is yours, or you won't be having it for long. I will shoot a varmint breaking into my home same as I'll shoot a coyote or fox trying to steal one of my chickens. A varmint is a varmint, I'll make no distinctions as to whether they are two-legged or four-legged. Furthermore, I'll not apologize for my remarks if they sound too harsh or they offend someone. Nor would I apologize to anyone if I did indeed have to shoot some lowlife piece of scum breaking into my home. As for all of the crime that is running rampant in our country, I, for one, am sick of hearing about it, reading about it and watching it daily on the television.
AMEN to that one. I have NO sympathy for scums who break in...and they could lie out on my front walk and die for all I care. They don't deserve any better for what they did, or tried to do.
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Old 02-27-2008, 02:30 PM
 
Location: East Texas, with the Clan of the Cave Bear
1,605 posts, read 2,628,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_SDCA View Post
You and I may disagree about whether he should be allowed to shoot to protect his neighbor's property.

I think we do!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_SDCA View Post
However, please do not even try to argue that the guy was "in fear for his life.
I am not arguing that ... but his lawyer is and there is a good chance successfully.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_SDCA View Post
If he remained in his own house, called the police, and the criminal was at his neighbor's, no rational person would conclude that.

That, my dear, is a total matter of perspective. I consider myself rational and I agree the 2 perps needed killin'. At some point, I feel, rational people have to stand up and refuse to put up with theiving, murdering, and raping. My rationality says if I stand by and allow this kind of stuff with my neighbor then I am no better that the scum perpetrating the crimes! That's my rationale!


Obviously you have different standards! We come from 2 different worlds!




I also assume you won't agree with my "they needed killin' " defense!
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