is Texas a southwestern or southern state? (Houston, Dallas: real estate, condominium)

[catman]

One must remember that in the history of the state, the pattern of settlement went from east to west. So the 'southern' culture got a head start (as well as the Mexican influence in the south). I would say that Texas east of Dallas is Southern, the far western ('trans-Pecos') part is Southwestern, and everything in between is just...well, Texan. It is a big state with several distinct areas.

TexasReb: I think your riposte to alphajet was just abot dead solid perfect. Bravo!

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Sandstorm214

As usual, TexasReb is too kind. He's right though--although he and I see things a little differently, I respect his point of view and his pride in his Southern heritage and have actually learned a lot I didn't know from him. I think we're both pretty steadfast in our respective points of view, but he remains one of my favorite posters here and I always get a kick out of his polls. I hate that Texas gets an unfair rap for being an intolerant culture that isn't open to different points of view, because I think we Texans love a good debate and have the ability to still walk away with a handshake and a good feeling about the other person. To me that's one of those things that makes Texas such a great place. Hmm...that's kind of that southern civility thing I was talking about, isn't it? Maybe I'm a little more southern than I realized--hehe!

I am on a roll with polls this weekend, so this next one -- gimme a minute to get it together -- is sorta kinda named after you! You'll see! I can't wait to see your reply! *grins*

[3CardPokerSlave]

Originally Posted by Sandstorm214

Not to nitpick, but the 3/5 person thing was not a Confederacy thing--that was a United States thing.

I know. It was a compromise. The North didn't want anyone black counted as population because the south didn't conscider them population.

The south tried to count them as people for census purposes only, the North argued that they have no rights and to the south, they are no more than self propelling yard equipment.

so they COMPROMISED, as opposed to the south just giving blacks equal rights.

It's still pathetic, and anyone who is proud to celebrate a way of life that makes a man property is pathetic, and I hope I avoid people like this when I get here.

[Upper_D_Robb]

what a collection of posts ... really like sitting in my kitchen with a group of Texas folk talking in person. I got the coffee if u got the time.

I think even if I didn't have my personal & brief connection to Texas this topic would be interesting and safe to say, never ending. To answer the question "is Texas the "south", the SW, or what ?" Just say Texas, that sez it all. While Texas may have some elements of a Southern State, I feel in my heart of hearts, there is no place like Texas and will not now nor ever be confused with such states. But then again, when people ask me what part of Pennsylvania am I from I do say "right near Philadelphia" ... because the Western PA does not want to be confused AT ALL with their Eastern half. But Texas is more like a "State of Mind" than PA is ... so a one word answer is accurate. "Texas" sez it all.

Oh, about being called a "Yankee" ... the only person who actually called me a Yankee and a Damn Yankee was Cowboy Al who lives in Amarillo. While he wasn't exactly the best friend material, he was a good ambassador for Texas. Just don't joke about range fires being a way to have a mass weinee roast. That really ticked him off. The man just has no sense of humor

Now if you'll excuse me, it's time I go throw some darts at these political posters that have been piling up in my mail bin. It's that time of the year

[Sandstorm214]

Originally Posted by 3CardPokerSlave

I know. It was a compromise. The North didn't want anyone black counted as population because the south didn't conscider them population.

The south tried to count them as people for census purposes only, the North argued that they have no rights and to the south, they are no more than self propelling yard equipment.

so they COMPROMISED, as opposed to the south just giving blacks equal rights.

It's still pathetic, and anyone who is proud to celebrate a way of life that makes a man property is pathetic, and I hope I avoid people like this when I get here.

Hey, you've got no disagreement from me on that. However, like I've said before, I don't identify with the South but even I realize that there is a BIG difference between most southerners taking pride in their region and culture (which doesn't include slavery or racism) and people celebrating slavery. I've known many who celebrate the former, but I don't recall ever being around anybody who hope for the latter. If I did, I too would be disgusted. I'm sure such people exist, but they aren't people I would want to spend time around. And I would be willing to bet that there are just as many genuinely racist people where you are now as you will find here. Racism today, in my experience, is no more prevalent in Texas or the parts of the south I have been than anywhere else in this country.

[Upper_D_Robb]

Originally Posted by Sandstorm214

... Racism today, in my experience, is no more prevalent in Texas or the parts of the south I have been than anywhere else in this country.

Racism is unfortunately universal in our great country ... as long as we're still "human" people wil be prone to racism and it's ugly behavior.

While I know this ugly fact is true anywhere in our 50 state union, I don't concentrate on this when I think of Texas ... it's your history, your natural beauty and the people I have been priviledged to meet on line and in person that all say Texas to me. Words can always be confusing ... but pictures aren't ... I believe when one sets foot in an area such this there is no confusing that Texas should be thought of as part of the south.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Upper_D_Robb

Racism is unfortunately universal in our great country ... as long as we're still "human" people wil be prone to racism and it's ugly behavior.

While I know this ugly fact is true anywhere in our 50 state union, I don't concentrate on this when I think of Texas ... it's your history, your natural beauty and the people I have been priviledged to meet on line and in person that all say Texas to me. Words can always be confusing ... but pictures aren't ... I believe when one sets foot in an area such this there is no confusing that Texas should be thought of as part of the south.

That is a good picture, and I see your point. But physical geography is not the best indicator of an historical and cultural region. Rather, it has much more to do with the historical and cultural factors which shaped the place.

I mean, there are parts of the Mississippi Delta area (which has been called the "most Southern place on earth"), whose flat lands and all could easily be confused with plains in Texas. And if we are talking landscapes, there are areas of East Texas that rival anything in Savannah, Georgia, in terms of the moonlight and magnolia imagery.

If someone said Texas, as a whole, is not part of the "SouthEAST" I would agree (far East Texas exempted) completely, but "the South" is something different. The two (Southeast and South) are not synonymous. The primary influences which shaped Texas are of the American South...and most of the things thought of as uniquely Texas are of Southern roots.

One can make a value-judgement on whether or not the said influences are "good" or "bad", but they are intrinsically part of our Texas character and heritage. Even the prototype of the original Texas cowboy has strong southeastern origins (i.e. the drover tradition).

There is no reason why -- when it involves Texas -- for the West and South to be at odds with one another. I mean, think of Kansas. It too is a "western" state. But no one denies that it is part of the American Midwest, and a product of the same.

I think Randolph Campbell in a great contemporary work on Texas history and culture (Gone To Texas) summed it up very well. He spoke of the undeniable importance of the confluence of Mexican and European people, and of the frontier west. But as he said:

"The more basic story of Texas during these years did not play out in the (southern or western parts of the state). Instead, the key to Texas then -- and in many respects ever since -- lay in its development as an essentially Southern state, a part of the South."

[3CardPokerSlave]

Originally Posted by Sandstorm214

And I would be willing to bet that there are just as many genuinely racist people where you are now as you will find here. Racism today, in my experience, is no more prevalent in Texas or the parts of the south I have been than anywhere else in this country.

The North is worse, much much worse.

[homeinatx]

I think Texas might have been Southern for parts of it's history, but demographically it is no longer. It is one of 4 majority minority states - HI, CA and NM are the others. None of those are remotely southern? What southern state is over 30% Hispanic? Not even Florida. Last year Houston became the largest city in the history of the world to elect an openly lesbian mayor. Not even Atlanta. While TX may have been southern for a while, it is no longer. TX is its own, increasingly cosmopolitan event. It has way more in common with California, in terms of the size and diversity of its economy and demographics - most of its population is now urban and suburban - than with any other state, especially any other state in the South. That's what explains the animosity btw those 2 states.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by homeinatx

I think Texas might have been Southern for parts of it's history, but demographically it is no longer. It is one of 4 majority minority states - HI, CA and NM are the others. None of those are remotely southern? What southern state is over 30% Hispanic? Not even Florida. Last year Houston became the largest city in the history of the world to elect an openly lesbian mayor. Not even Atlanta. While TX may have been southern for a while, it is no longer. TX is its own, increasingly cosmopolitan event. It has way more in common with California, in terms of the size and diversity of its economy and demographics - most of its population is now urban and suburban - than with any other state, especially any other state in the South. That's what explains the animosity btw those 2 states.

NO way does it have more in common with California! LOL

But yep, the demographics are for sure an issue. In fact -- and I have said it before -- the influx of migrants into the state have no doubt had an impact. The difference is though, that none of the other states you mention ever had a real intrinsic connection with "the South."

And too, it can be very much argued with figures and facts that states like Georiga and North Carolina are headed in the same direction. Virginia and Florida have been for quite some time. As John Shelton Reed once put it in "The Disappearing South" (I think it was), something like "Florida is long gone, Virginia is going that way, Texas is on the fence..."

But with all that said, the essence of Texas is not (IMHO) in its large urban areas nor rapid demographic changes (which differentiates it from the true SW and always has), but in the smaller cities and rural areas, which make up the vast majority of the state. When you get out of DFW and Houston and Austin, the voting patterns, the speech, the religious affiliation, and just the common folk-ways are still essentially Southern in nature and origin.