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It allows you to pay low prices for your produce. I used to believe that immigrants were taking jobs away from Americans. Maybe they are for some, but I worked in occupations that always have severe shortages. Even during the recession, security companies, jails, and prisons struggled to keep jobs filled. TDCJ started hiring people with work visas to fill positions. Obviously, I wasn't opposed to doing those jobs since I did them; but, apparently, most unemployed Americans were. Now that the recession is over, police departments are also struggling to fill openings. These are jobs undocumented immigrants can't get. I've lost count of how many people turned up their noses when I suggested these types of jobs to them. If they were so mad about illegal immigrants taking their jobs, you would think more of them would want to get paid to get them out of the country.
Yet, you have no solution to have them all deported. As long as they stay here illegally, they will continue to work under the table and keep wages low for certain occupations (if Americans even want to work in those occupations). They will also get away with not paying some taxes, which you said you have a problem with. There really is no logic to your argument. My solution is not that they are going to stay. I'm acknowledging the truth that the majority WILL stay because we can't deport millions of people.
I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, but I have no problem with the federal government deporting people because they have the funding to do this. This is why ICE exists. I have no problem with the president hiring more ICE agents if he can manage to get anything done. I've thought about applying for ICE; most loud mouths would never get their hands dirty in law enforcement. You keep trying to put words in my mouth, and it is really disingenuous. You're a terrible mind reader. This is something people do when their arguments are weak. I've actually had to oversee detained, illegal immigrants. What have you done besides complain?
Lets go over each of your tired arguments so I can show you why they are mainly excuses to not start the very long process the US will have go through to tackle it large and COSTLY illegal immigration problem:
First, lets go over the claim that produce will rise without the illegal labor. Labor costs only make up 6 percent of the price American consumers pay for fresh produce. If farm wages were allowed to rise even 40 percent, and if all the costs associated with that rise were passed on to consumers, the cost to the average household would be only about $8 a year. Real wages for farm workers have remained stagnant a .5 percent since 2000 This also begs the questions that if the wages have remained stagnant that long, wouldn't wages have gone up if there was such a shortage for jobs Americans won't do?
For farm work alone, there are ways to invest in production to make up for a rise in labor such as automation and mechanization. Shortly after the “Bracero” Mexican guestworker program ceased in the mid-60s, farm work wages rose 40 percent, but consumer prices rose relatively little because the mechanization of some crops dramatically increased productivity.
Secondly, if there are jobs Americans won't do, then there should be occupations compromised entirely or mostly of illegal immigrants. Yet all data figures show that there are only four occupations in America that are majority immigrant and those four occupations account for only 1 percent of the total American workforce. Even in occupations we think Americans won't do such as maids, taxi drivers, butchers, construction, janitors, are all well over half American born. Janitors are 75% American. Construction? 65%.
Here are the figures: Untitled Document
Note: not all occupations with a high number of immigrants are low skilled and low wage such as medical scientists, software engineers, doctors and chemists.
Americans probably don't take some jobs because the pay is low and the work is difficult and these companies have no incentive to raise wages because they have a constant stream of cheap labor flowing through the border. But Americans will do jobs they've done before in the past if the former changes.
All of your arguments pretty much point to this notion that it's impossible to deport all of them in some unreasonable short of span of time you've concocted, so we might as well let them stay because we are stuck with this problem for good. But all that tells me is that you're comfortable with a permanent underclass of people that business owners exploit. They drive down the wages of jobs Americans used to do and make those jobs seem utterly unappealing.
Most illegals don't work on farms, they do under-the-counter work at retail, restaurants, or contracting companies. If all illegals were gone, I'm sure labor rates would increase slightly.
Yes, there are some jobs Americans won't take. Would I work in a field in 95 degree weather for minimum wage and no benefits? Heck no!
All of this being said, I completely understand why sanctuary cities exist and support the idea, but do not support illegals being here. The only thing "sanctuary city" means is that individuals aren't questioned about immigration status when reporting a crime. Even if someone is illegal, we should encourage that person to report crimes to law enforcement. This is why law enforcement is often for the idea of a sanctuary city. They want people to report crimes.
However, sanctuary cities have nothing to do with illegals who commit crimes. If an illegal is committing a crime, his/her immigration status will definitely be checked. But it's still up to the Feds to enforce federal laws.
Most illegals don't work on farms, they do under-the-counter work at retail, restaurants, or contracting companies. If all illegals were gone, I'm sure labor rates would increase slightly.
Yes, there are some jobs Americans won't take. Would I work in a field in 95 degree weather for minimum wage and no benefits? Heck no!
All of this being said, I completely understand why sanctuary cities exist and support the idea, but do not support illegals being here. The only thing "sanctuary city" means is that individuals aren't questioned about immigration status when reporting a crime. Even if someone is illegal, we should encourage that person to report crimes to law enforcement. This is why law enforcement is often for the idea of a sanctuary city. They want people to report crimes.
However, sanctuary cities have nothing to do with illegals who commit crimes. If an illegal is committing a crime, his/her immigration status will definitely be checked. But it's still up to the Feds to enforce federal laws.
Right, but I was addressing the other poster's point that the lack of illegal labor will somehow cause food prices to skyrocket. Americans will not take those jobs for the very reason you just outlined; they pay little and they're difficult. They pay little because these companies have an incentive to keep labor costs low. Americans used to do these jobs when they paid high and there wasn't this stream of cheap labor coming from the south.
As far as the sanctuary city things go, I think you've arrived late to the discussion because a video was posted as well a radio interview with a local law enforcement sheriff who debunked that idea you and others who've politicized the illegal alien issue, brought up. I suggest you go back and listen to what he has to say.
So the sanctuary city thing is a moot point anyways? Local law enforcement is not responsible for enforcing federal immigration laws, so why even bother having sanctuary city laws?
On another note, things are very different in Europe. I've been asked for my passport several times by local police. No idea what they would do if I didn't have a passport or valid visa.
So the sanctuary city thing is a moot point anyways? Local law enforcement is not responsible for enforcing federal immigration laws, so why even bother having sanctuary city laws?
On another note, things are very different in Europe. I've been asked for my passport several times by local police. No idea what they would do if I didn't have a passport or valid visa.
Listen to the Sheriff, it bars local government from not allowing officers to ask for immigration status. Local cops won't be doing ICE's job. They will co-operate with ICE doing their job. This isn't about taking local cops away from their beat to go be ICE agents. He explains it pretty clear. I think this all gets so politicized and ideological that we are failing to enforce existing laws on the books. I think detractors just think the best solution to this mess is to find a way to keep all the illegal aliens we have here, find them a path to citizenship because they feel bad for their situation or they think it will be much more of a hassle to enforce existing laws. Either way they do not like existing laws and think there needs to be reform. The other side doesn't. It's that simple.
Last edited by radiolibre99; 05-12-2017 at 01:25 PM..
Listen to the Sheriff, it bars local government from not allowing officers to ask for immigration status. Local cops won't be doing ICE's job. They will co-operate with ICE doing their job. This isn't about taking local cops away from their beat to go be ICE agents. He explains it pretty clear. I think this all gets so politicized and ideological that we are failing to enforce existing laws on the books. I think detractors just think the best solution to this mess is to find a way to keep all the illegal aliens we have here, find them a path to citizenship because they feel bad for their situation or they think it will be much more of a hassle to enforce existing laws. Either way they do not like existing laws and think there needs to be reform. The other side doesn't. It's that simple.
Gotcha! I think I understand it better now.
I don't think LE from should be prohibited from asking immigration questions, but I do think that questions should only be allowed at certain times. Being detained or arrested? By all means, please ask those questions. Reporting a crime or witness to a crime? No, asking for immigration info isn't necessary.
I don't think LE from should be prohibited from asking immigration questions, but I do think that questions should only be allowed at certain times. Being detained or arrested? By all means, please ask those questions. Reporting a crime or witness to a crime? No, asking for immigration info isn't necessary.
Lepoisson, I implore you to listen to the videos posted earlier in this thread. The Sheriff addresses all these questions and squashes the arguments of detractors. LE cannot ask these questions when people whether legal or illegal report a crime or are victims of crimes. Even if a LLE agent asks an illegal alien his immigration status and he says he is illegal and is pulled over for a routine traffic stop, he will simply receive the citation. This bill is to simply break the wall sanctuary cities have built between LLE and federal agencies. Even though the major cities in Texas did not openly declare themselves sanctuary cities politically, they still sort of operate as de facto sanctuary cities.
So the sanctuary city thing is a moot point anyways? Local law enforcement is not responsible for enforcing federal immigration laws, so why even bother having sanctuary city laws?
On another note, things are very different in Europe. I've been asked for my passport several times by local police. No idea what they would do if I didn't have a passport or valid visa.
We really don't have sanctuary city laws. As for Europe, I've never once been asked for a passport by local police. In fact, unless I was out exchanging money or something, my passport was locked up in the hotel safe to keep it out of the hands of pickpockets.
Lets go over each of your tired arguments so I can show you why they are mainly excuses to not start the very long process the US will have go through to tackle it large and COSTLY illegal immigration problem:
First, lets go over the claim that produce will rise without the illegal labor. Labor costs only make up 6 percent of the price American consumers pay for fresh produce. If farm wages were allowed to rise even 40 percent, and if all the costs associated with that rise were passed on to consumers, the cost to the average household would be only about $8 a year. Real wages for farm workers have remained stagnant a .5 percent since 2000 This also begs the questions that if the wages have remained stagnant that long, wouldn't wages have gone up if there was such a shortage for jobs Americans won't do?
It's obvious that the wages are stagnant because they have found enough workers among immigrants.
Quote:
For farm work alone, there are ways to invest in production to make up for a rise in labor such as automation and mechanization. Shortly after the “Bracero” Mexican guestworker program ceased in the mid-60s, farm work wages rose 40 percent, but consumer prices rose relatively little because the mechanization of some crops dramatically increased productivity.
Yes, automation takes more jobs than anything else, and it will only get worse. That's why it's important to become trained in a job that a machine can't do.
Quote:
Secondly, if there are jobs Americans won't do, then there should be occupations compromised entirely or mostly of illegal immigrants. Yet all data figures show that there are only four occupations in America that are majority immigrant and those four occupations account for only 1 percent of the total American workforce. Even in occupations we think Americans won't do such as maids, taxi drivers, butchers, construction, janitors, are all well over half American born. Janitors are 75% American. Construction? 65%.
What is your point here? Many jobs cannot get around the requirement of citizenship, permanent residency, or a work visa due to licensing and/or background check requirements. If you count legal immigrants, there are occupations with a substantial amount of them.
Quote:
Americans probably don't take some jobs because the pay is low and the work is difficult and these companies have no incentive to raise wages because they have a constant stream of cheap labor flowing through the border. But Americans will do jobs they've done before in the past if the former changes.
If anyone is looking for a job, I know of several correctional departments that almost always have mandatory overtime. I can guarantee you that illegal immigrants are not the ones suppressing their wages, taxpayers and elected government officials are.
Quote:
All of your arguments pretty much point to this notion that it's impossible to deport all of them in some unreasonable short of span of time you've concocted, so we might as well let them stay because we are stuck with this problem for good. But all that tells me is that you're comfortable with a permanent underclass of people that business owners exploit. They drive down the wages of jobs Americans used to do and make those jobs seem utterly unappealing.
I did NOT say that we might as well let them stay. This poor reading comprehension is very annoying to deal with. The people who are comfortable with a permanent underclass are the ones who know we can't deport them all, but don't want to find a way to have them work legally. Those people are people like you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by radiolibre99
Right, but I was addressing the other poster's point that the lack of illegal labor will somehow cause food prices to skyrocket. Americans will not take those jobs for the very reason you just outlined; they pay little and they're difficult. They pay little because these companies have an incentive to keep labor costs low. Americans used to do these jobs when they paid high and there wasn't this stream of cheap labor coming from the south.
As far as the sanctuary city things go, I think you've arrived late to the discussion because a video was posted as well a radio interview with a local law enforcement sheriff who debunked that idea you and others who've politicized the illegal alien issue, brought up. I suggest you go back and listen to what he has to say.
First, slaves and indentured servants were the ones who mostly did those jobs. Then, it was mostly oppressed black people doing those jobs because they hardly had any other opportunities along with very poor white people. These were not good-paying jobs. After that, we had a lot of legal immigrants doing those jobs when we allowed legal immigration in larger numbers.
It's obvious that the wages are stagnant because they have found enough workers among immigrants.
Yes, they have a steady supply of cheap wages. If that would cease, wages would rise and more Americans would fill those roles.
Quote:
Yes, automation takes more jobs than anything else, and it will only get worse. That's why it's important to become trained in a job that a machine can't do.
Automation is what probably will slow down illegal immigration more than anything.
Quote:
What is your point here? Many jobs cannot get around the requirement of citizenship, permanent residency, or a work visa due to licensing and/or background check requirements. If you count legal immigrants, there are occupations with a substantial amount of them.
Which is exactly my point. That there aren't a lot of jobs out there that wholly immigrant whether legal or illegal to begin with. The chart I posted doesn't account for illegal vs legal, so that might make the number of illegal immigrants in mostly immigrant occupations even lower. That means there wouldn't be a economy wrecking shortage without illegal immigrants.
Quote:
If anyone is looking for a job, I know of several correctional departments that almost always have mandatory overtime. I can guarantee you that illegal immigrants are not the ones suppressing their wages, taxpayers and elected government officials are.
Illegal immigration adds to the stagnation of wages that has been going on since the stagflation crisis of the late 70s. It isn't the sole reason for it. But illegal immigration has helped to lower wages in all sectors including sectors not wholly occupied by illegals.
Quote:
I did NOT say that we might as well let them stay. This poor reading comprehension is very annoying to deal with. The people who are comfortable with a permanent underclass are the ones who know we can't deport them all, but don't want to find a way to have them work legally. Those people are people like you.
You don't have to outright say it, essentially it is what you're saying though. Deportations seem to be going just fine now and will continue. The border traffic has slowed and we don't even have a wall up yet. For the most part if you don't want them gone, what do you want? A path to legal citizenship?
Quote:
First, slaves and indentured servants were the ones who mostly did those jobs. Then, it was mostly oppressed black people doing those jobs because they hardly had any other opportunities along with very poor white people. These were not good-paying jobs. After that, we had a lot of legal immigrants doing those jobs when we allowed legal immigration in larger numbers.
Wages had been rising in this country for a good long while until the 70s when they started peaking. The 1965 immigration reform led to the beginning of an influx on new labor from the global south and created the situation we are in today. To say the jobs never paid decent is spurious. I just wrote to you that after the Bracero program was done with wages rose 40 percent.
Last edited by radiolibre99; 05-14-2017 at 07:06 AM..
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